Conversation with Harold Offeh 17th June 2009

A conversation between Harold Offeh, Intoart artists Clifton Wright, Mawuena Kattah, Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye and Sam Jones at Studio Voltaire.

Sam: Who would like to start? Who has a question?

Clifton: What’s your inspiration for doing that type of work, artwork? …. Products of these different occasions?

Harold: I think, quite often I respond to things, to places, to situations, to music, TV shows. I’m quite influenced by lots of things that are, I guess what you might call popular culture, lots of things that are just around us. Very often I will respond to things that I see or that I experience - that I use within the work. So for example with the mammy piece (‘Being Mammy’) I remember it is responding to that film that I saw ‘Gone with the wind’ or to the Tom and Jerry cartoons; they had a mammy character and you only ever saw her feet. So I remember these things and then I come to a point where I think, oh this is quite interesting, how can I use this subject matter and respond to it?’

Very often it is things that are around me. For you, is it a specific thing that you respond to?

C: It depends how I feel, what mood I’m in. Like if it’s people, I like to give myself a challenge, a difficulty and work around it.

H: So it might be that you’re responding to how you’re feeling at a certain point maybe and then you’ll start working in response to that. Is that similar for you guys as well? What influences you?

Ntiense: Not in particular. I don’t want to say now.

H: That’s fine.

S: Ntiense, the time you spend in here writing and thinking about work is very different to the time you spend in the studio making work. I remember last time somebody came to visit, Elizabeth came in and you had a very interesting conversation about how words relate to visual artwork and how you use words. How the words are then seen. At the moment Ntiense you’re thinking about how your titles and names and poems are included with the drawings and prints that you make aren’t you? I don’t know if you want to say anything about that and how you’re working with words and images and prints and drawings?

N: They’re quite intimate. I’m searching for…

S: Shall I grab those because they’re really interesting, do you want to explain how you did those?

N: I went on the internet and I searched for the names of them and I print them out and I tried to copy it. I figure out my ideas without writing what I need from my print out. I print out about 40 because ones that are new ones and the ones in the folder.

S: It was these Ntiense, all these different potential titles. And then you’ve edited and chosen specific ones. Where did you get all these titles from and words? What were you looking at?

N: I remember

S: It’s really interesting the relationship between the words and the titles and what you’ve chosen from searching with those words on the internet and putting them together, as a research project.

N: Yeah.

H: This is quite an interesting one ‘Together in the evening’, I guess that’s the moon, its this night scene and then there’s this couple with an umbrella. I guess its quite poetic in a way.

S: Are titles really important to you in your artwork? Would you say they’re important?

N: Yeah.

S: You had some really interesting ideas about how you talk about your work as well, in terms of presenting your artwork. Clifton and Ntiense have been writing as well about how when it comes to it, to stand up and talk about artwork and show artwork at the same time. We’ve been thinking of all the technology that can be used, we’re going through that process at the moment. Ntiense you wanted to get a slide projector to play around with images and text together didn’t you?

N: Yeah

S: …and Clifton you’ve got lots of different ideas, things that we will try out as well.

C: Yeah



N: I was thinking, (about) the plan for the ideas and how you did the film?

H: So do you mean in terms of how I made the film or how I talk about the film?

N: Yeah

H: Well if I start with how I talk about it, I think that very often for me it’s often starts with talking about the process maybe, giving people an insight into how I made this thing. For example when I was talking about the film that I made, the film in Brazil –
I was talking about why I was dancing, the fact that I was dancing because I’d had these lessons, the costume and where that came from. So that’s often breaking it down and talking about the actual process of how this thing that the audience is looking at, how it was made. In that way it opens things out a bit more for the audience because they get an idea of how I went about constructing it and making it. Very often for me that is the starting point. From my experience there are some artists that like to talk about what it means, so not how it was made but what the artist feels it means for them. I quite often do that. I know there are some artists that don’t like doing that. There are a lot of artists that feel that they want people to get a meaning for themselves out of the work, if they say their intention and what it means for them that it stops other people, I don’t know if I agree with that personally but I think that is maybe a judgment that as an artists you have to make really. Some people feel they want to leave it open so that anyone can get anything they want from it whereas other people feel happy to talk about some of their ideas and the meanings. I don’t know how you feel about that?

N: I feel it’s good, it’s inspired me. The films that me, Maweuna, Doreen and Clifton did, the parts of it that we’re involved with, the talking, the sound and how you represent the work.

In yours, is there some of an echo sound? And you hear the words of the background and when you stand back there’s some acting going on with women…I think it’s suspicious because I’m thinking about the echo and the sound protector of someone, if someone is lying down on the floor.

S: The way that your film starts?

N: Yeah, you’re involved in it. I think it’s particular because I think it’s good.

S: Maybe then I’d ask you the question Ntiense; in your artwork are you telling a story in your artwork? Or not?

N: That isn’t related to the artwork

S: …Because I think that’s really interesting that you make the distinction that you’re not telling a story although you have all these titles about different characters.
I suppose - why do you give titles to all your work and you create all these characters and at the same time you don’t want there to be a definite story? Can you explain that?

N: Well it’s a theme. When you say the storyline, it’s like all the emotion of the themes. When you do a theme, two different types of what you’re saying about the characters. What you’re saying about the story, its in a line…When you turn to the front paper and the back paper its like a story. You’re retelling the story. When you’re telling a story all the characters are in it. The artwork is like a theme of work. It’s the same but different, one or two sections, you’re doing a theme of work, its why I’m doing the same thing.

The ones (artwork) on the wall are day and night, it’s the same thing.
It is actually a theme of separate work.

S: I probably shouldn’t use the word story, but I have to use that, there’s the circus, maybe that’s a theme and not a story?

N: I invented that one

S: Yeah you invented that, the idea of the circus as a way of bringing together lots of different themes; landscape, lights, the idea of escape

N: Portraits

S: I think that’s really interesting Ntiense, the idea of its not a story but it’s a way of pulling lots of stories together.

H: Then I think that the way you display it is really important to that, to try and communicate that to the audience, I think its simple things, we’re often quite trained because we’re so used to stories and narratives to try to read things in that way so for example showing a row of images, that immediately sets it up for a story, people are looking from left to right, one image follows another, looking for a story. So if you wanted to get away from that, if you didn’t want people to read it as boom, boom, boom, you might try and mix it up or you might try and group or cluster images together so you’ve got a whole set of images in the corner. You might have one set there and one set there. It stops people from doing the really simple thing of putting things together.

Clifton’s questions to Harold

S: Clifton have you been writing questions? You’ve got four questions? Good that’s great. Do you want to fire away?

C: I’m going to do it the backward way of asking question four first, I like to do things like that…Where is the furthest place that you have been to so far with your art? I like asking hard questions. Can you remember?

H: In terms of distance, er, I think it’s Cape Town in South Africa, oh no I’ve been to China that’s further isn’t it? We went to a province called…near a city called Quang Ho near Hong Kong. That’s probably the furthest.

C: How do you feel when you’re doing the art and what are you thinking when you’re doing the art?

H: I think it depends what sort of stage it is, I really like doing research and like finding out about things. One of the reasons that I got into doing art and still like doing art is that its often for me about finding out about new things and acquiring knowledge so the fact that it allows me to explore ideas that I might have or things that I don’t understand. I often use it like ‘Oh I don’t know about this, I’m going to go off and find out about it’. So that is really enjoyable, so there’s that research stage. And then it often comes to a point where it’s like a bit of a challenge, it’s a problem solving exercise, where its like I’ve got to make a piece of work or there’s a question I need to answer or something. I quite like that because that’s a real challenge because I have to really concentrate. And then you come up with an idea. And then I think the bit that I less enjoy is actually making it. It’s like ok I’ve done all this nice research where I’ve been messing around. I’ve done the problem bit…’

S: Is it like that for anyone else?

Laughter

H: …and then I come up with the idea and its like ok, right, I’ve got to do this now and then that bit I don’t necessarily enjoy as much because I get a bit anxious. You’ve got to make it perfect, and do it again. And I’d actually be quite happy to get someone else to do all of that, all of it. Sometimes I enjoy it but generally that’s the hardest bit for me.

C: Fair enough!

H: How is it for you guys?

C: I don’t mind it at all

N: It’s not too bad

H: Do you enjoy just doing the work, as well as doing the ideas and the research, the process?

N: Yeah

S: What do you like doing in the studio Maweuna? You do lots of different things, you do painting and sometimes you do prints?

M: I like painting

H: But that is actually a different way of working, that is something I should maybe do more of because I what I tend to do is sit down quite coldly and come up with an idea and then try and make the idea. But there’s another way of working where you’re using materials, where you’re drawing or you’re doing painting or sculpture where actually it works the other way around - the work comes out of the process of doing that. Which is maybe what I don’t do enough of, which is maybe why it’s a bit more enjoyable for you guys! It’s that thing of experimenting that’s what I’m trying to say

S: You can have that learning experience, the challenges are there. Ntiense you spend a lot of time doing research and thinking carefully about what you want to achieve in terms of someone looking at your work. So I wondered if you have any comment about what Harold said about it, about thinking and researching being an important part? Is the research an important part of what you do in your work, is it something you enjoy doing?

N: That’s part of the artwork and one is separate to that is my written work

S: Ok so there’s written and research and then there’s doing. Something I find in terms of books, which are sort of my thing, the relationship between words and images in books and the way that an artist might write in a particular way and there’s something really exciting about that because it relates to something they’re doing visually, and at the same time maybe a writer who doesn’t use visual communication at all might write something about an artist, and they’re looking at something and writing. It’s really interesting that relationship between words and images.

And it’s something that as you go into a gallery suddenly becomes something that people have an expectation that there will be certain words used or even certain words not used. So there are all sorts of decisions around how, in that space the artwork that is made in the studio here, changes or develops not necessarily for the worse and its about taking control of that I suppose.

H: It’s interesting in a gallery how important text becomes whether that’s the title, the labels or text panels and you go in sometimes they give you a leaflet or a bit of writing on.

N: I think that’d be good for me, yes

S: You like the idea of having a leaflet and words and panels? Are you going to have words that are your artwork as well?

N: Yes

S: So there are all those layers. We went to see the Ian Hamilton Finlay room at Tate Britain a few weeks ago, with the dinghy and the poems that were painted on the wall…

N: Was it in a line? The one on the wall, the ship and there were words coming down.

S: Yeah it was in a curve, yeah, just as a reference. So I think, were you talking on Friday Ntiense about how you are going to make words part of your artwork? Were you talking with Guy and Ella about that? How you’re going to bring it together?

…Clifton did you have another question

C: What art would you do the next time we see you and would it be different?

H: Oh, (laughs) that’s a good question. Well I think there are sort of two related ways of working. I’ve been working on this series of videos and photographs that again I’m performing in that relate to specific album covers. So I’ve tried to use the album covers as starting points for performances. So there’s this one, which is by a singer called Grace Jones. I was quite interested in this image and for a long time I thought this was an amazing really striking image because she’s holding this amazing pose. Then a few years ago I discovered that actually the image is very altered, it’s a composite, so it’s two photos put together. So actually this position, which is a dance position, it’s called Arabesque when you’re on one leg its called an Arabesque but its almost impossible, well it is impossible to do this image. And the top half of her body was photographed facing on and the bottom half of her body is in profile. And they’ve put the two photos together. So you’d have to pretty much break your rib cage to get this position.

N: When she does that, holding her foot, does it hurt, when she’s had that pose, does it hurt?

H: Yeah, it’s quite hard and the fact that her leg is so high up. I think there are a few professional dancers who might be able to get fairly close to it. So I did this photograph where I’m trying to do it. If you remember the other image, it’s pretty difficult to do. So if you look at this image very much her shoulders are square on and you can see all her front there. And then in my pathetic attempt, you know my leg isn’t as far up, my shoulders aren’t square on. I’m not as twisted round to the front as much. So what I was interested in was in the impossibility of that image and how it in a way presents an ideal image of perfection, this amazing body. And then actually someone ordinary like me trying to do it. And there’s a gap between, you know like a lot of images we see are really manipulated and sort of stretched (and this is quite stretched as well actually) to make them look really perfect and then that’s completely different to the reality of trying to do that.

N: To represent the picture you know you put the album cover, the front and the back. It has the record inside. Does that picture represent the front cover or the album?

H: Yes it does, it was based on vinyl records, I‘ve got a very small vinyl record collection. Its 12 inches so it’s quite big and the original image that I had is based on that. And when I did the photograph, my photograph, I then made an album cover size, so it’s 12 inches as well, like the original album. So the two things relate so when I come to display it hopefully looks like a big album cover, big album cover size.
So came back to your question Clifton I’m doing a series of these that are based on these other album covers as well.

There was another part of your question as well wasn’t there? Did I answer everything?

C: There’s the last one. What are you doing as far as art is concerned - the same thing or something new to do with art?

H: Did you say ‘Why?’

No I said. What are you doing as far as art is concerned - the same thing or something new to do with art?

H: That’s a good question. I think it’s a bit of both really. I think there are certain processes that I use that tend to be quite similar whether I use myself in video or performance. One of the other things that I’m starting to do now is collaborate with other people, which is perhaps something I haven’t talked about. So I’m quite interested in that and that is partly in response to the fact that quite a lot of the stuff I’ve done up ‘til now has just been me and that gets a bit boring sometimes really. Just like talking to yourself..

C: Going mad!

H: Yeah a little bit. And its quite nice to work with other people and do projects where maybe I’m not in them, which is quite nice. Then I don’t have to see myself all the time, which as I said is quite boring.

So there’s a certain kind of method that I work with whether that’s working with other people or using myself. But then there are also little new ideas or the subject matter of things maybe, new things that I’m interested in doing. For example I’ve had this idea for a while about doing these performances and these events that are based on these Japanese gameshows, ‘80s Japanese gameshows that I’ve got a collection from YouTube of, which are really amazing, where basically they invite teams of people, it might be family or friends and they create images together as performances.

S: Have you seen any of those?

H: They’re pretty wild actually. There’s one where they do a ten-pin bowling alley piece where they’ll have people dressed up as pins, you know like in a bowling alley. Each person will sort of stand there. So basically four people will make the ball, so they’ll all put themselves together into a ball shape and then they’ll be rolled down and they’ll hit the people who are dressed as pins. Or you’ll get another one where they’ll make a scene, where people will be dressed up and arranged. I saw one where they make a tree so they’re all standing on top of each other and then there’s a nest and then people are birds in the nest, they’re using their hands as the you know…So I’m quite interested in the potential of doing that as a project, so that’s maybe something new.

C: Laughing, I can’t believe it!

H: Yeah you should check it out. There are loads of them!

S: The one I saw was called Takashi’s castle, that was really funny. But I felt really sorry for the people that were playing it because they really injured themselves…but they’re always smiling!?

H: Yeah they always throw themselves into these tasks

S: They are amazing to watch, especially as they’re all in costume. Is that your last question (Clifton)? Has anyone else got a question? Because we could watch the films that you’ve all made and maybe Harold might have some questions. We could have another quick chat about the relevance of what we’ve been talking about.

Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio at Studio Voltaire and talking about work being made in the Intoart studio.

Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio

Clifton Wright CW: It’s like my work already

Elisabeth Le Court EC: Yes? Well, I like to paint people as well like you (laugh)

Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye NA: (laugh)Is it, It is erm funny? (Looking at one of
Elisabeth’s paintings)

EC: Yes, well some people see cat. Some people……
SJ: Can you see the animals…the penguins……yes?
EC: Erm…So I don’t place my work
NA: (Do you) like short hair?
EC: Sorry?
NA: This had short hair?
EC: yes yes, So I paint them from imagination, kind of
NA: it is…erm….Is it John…is it. John…Mandel with no hair? Well without hair
EC: well, It’s difficult to paint hair isn’t it but that’s not..
NA: is it another man
SJ: Do you like painting men?

EC: Oh, I don’t mind. Yes, I don’t really think, yes, I don’t really know what happens, sometimes, usually I don’t really have a finished idea in my mind? It’s probably the same as you? and then I see how it goes, and see if it turns into a woman or a man

SJ: you probably have something to say about that (addressing Clifton)……I am always asking questions, questions. Well not just me actually, Lenka (Clayton) was asking as well…..What you are thinking, because?

CW: yes

SJ: when you are working you are concentrating so hard….What’s the thought process?

EC: You don’t know because you don’t think about what you are thinking you just think about it
SJ: Yes

EC: Sometimes, I do have a slight idea of what I want to do….yes. I feel I have got to let it out. So that’s a course that I am doing at the moment

NA: Is that, is it a portrait.
EC: Kind of
NA: Is it a portrait
EC: Yes its…what do you mean?
NA: Like…peoples faces, portrait and body

EC: Apparently someone came here yesterday and he said….and I think he is right that if you turn the canvas here it would be much stronger, probably, because it is a bit weak here because there is no, what he said it is not very well drawn….. we don’t know if its legs, if they, we don’t really know was it is and when I did it I was quite happy with it for people to imagine what they want, I think it is too loose for anyone to imagine so I think you need to give more, a little bit for peoples imagination to go further away

SJ: So when you are doing a piece like that would you be working from life or would it all come from your imagination, from your head.

EC: yes it would come from imagination. But yesterday, I because he did tell me about the drawing and I really would like to draw from nature and I would have been really happy to have someone posing for me, I think, yes, I quite like that, yes I think it is a good idea. Yes. This one I did…You probably saw it

SJ: Yes. That was in the Studio Voltaire Annual Member’s Exhibition
EC: I think it is quite successfully one , well, but I started with this, but I never really do from drawing, bit I think is it is a good idea to maybe have something…

SJ: Its an amazing photograph.

EC: yes I know its really funny and her face looks like really its from another era, as well

NA: Where did you get it?
EC: Pardon?
NA: Where did you get that?
EC: From a charity shop. Because you all draw from images and references.
NA: Woman?
EC; Mexican, yes
NA: …..erm actually you are to do some more people some more animals?

EC: Well, yes I have one bird there, on his own, buts is usually people. I think it is my main interest is people…and the body as well and sculpture. So it was kind a like, Sometimes when you feel, I used to work more on like emotions before, everything was about emotion and letting emotions out and making sometimes you could feel that you can’t a little bit like this, but erm…the more I work like this the more I kind of….

SJ: Yes

EC: ….the more I work like this the more I use it like therapy as well. And now I am more, it’s another direction. It’ s another direction. I was doing some handkerchiefs. I was embroidering handkerchiefs like this one. And I was more, and it was all the emotions all the crying, because handkerchiefs are quite tactile as well and when we cry and all the snot and everything keeps on the handkerchief, but

NA: Snotty?

(laughs)

EC: so the embroidery was like all your emotion and all your pain goes into the handkerchief and then kind of you let it out again.

NA: did you do any more flowers or plants? Or stuff like that or leaves or flowers?
EC: I did a flower because there is hope, I like to think (all laugh)…erm and I did..
EC: this one is an earlier one
NA: What material?
EC: It’s a map, its paper
NA: It’s a map. Its paper
EC: I take a map and I cut it, when I was living in france, because I like, before the painting I was working more on the body. I was making clothes and I was making dresses to represent the body, so…

SJ: Do you always start with eyes or the shape of the head or is it always different?
EC: It is always different, Usually with the eyes…where can I show you?
EC; This one I don’t know if its finished?
NA: Is it dark? The Back
SJ: Yes, its very dark.
EC: Like a shadow
SJ: Yes, like a shadow like the shadows are taking over?
EC: I don’t know
EC: Yes maybe I should add some colour. Making like, No? Is that what you meant?
NA: That’s not actually what I meant…I thought that….
SJ: I really like the way that the two merge together. The fore ground and the back ground

EC: I’ve got more to show you if you want.
SJ: Yes, definitely
EC: I had an experience. I did this and I was happy with the breast, but not the rest
NA: Are they books?
EC: So I kept the breast
NA: Are they books

EC: Well I don’t know? I just did them to delete the images. I don’t know if its finished, what do you think? I’m not sure. What do you think?

SJ: Its really interesting, these abstract shapes, then suddenly there is something real.
EC: like a window….and this one I am not sure about. I think I should re-work on them.

SJ: You spend a lot of time re-working things (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Yes
EC: You come back to your paintings sometimes?
CW: Yes, lots of layers. like three or four layers at least. Argh
NA: What is this?
EC: Its somebody who dies (group laughs)
NA: Is it a mystery?

EC: Maybe she is running away or maybe escaping or I don’t know…what do you think? Going to a ball or?

NA: I think she is looking for…I think she is looking for love, looking for her parents I think she is looking for her…and looking for love

SJ: Her parents

EC: Yes, exactly like a princess kind of a romantic, I feel the same, she wants her freedom, maybe or something like that.

SJ: Like Elenor Rigby or something?
EC: Can you relate to something like this or is it too girly (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Well kind of, it is to be honest.

SJ: So we have got time just to go and have a chat about peoples work? Thanks Elizabeth that was really, really interesting.

Moving to Clifton Wright's space in the Intoart studio

SJ: It might be good to sort of start with someone’s space?
CW: Yes
SJ: Talk about….you could actually move…

CW: I’ll start with mine

SJ: You were talking about different layers of paint. Weren’t you?

CW: Yes

EC: So did you start, did it look completely different at the start and then paint over it? And then you changed it all?

CW: I don’t start with the paint originally, I start with charcoal and I pour something over it first, then I will use acrylic paint, with little dark and light bits of paint, I start of with lighter bits here then darker bit here, and then darker here, lighter here.

EC: So is it a self portrait?

CW: I can’t remember. I have a problem remembering. Not self portrait, but portraits one after another, I can’t remember, I have several self portraits, I can’t remember.

SJ: I wasn’t here when you did that.
SJ: This is quite a good question, actually, if you can remember.

EC: He looks older than you. What part of the painting do you prefer? When you start the painting or in the middle of it?

CW: I forget!
EC:You know.
SJ: I think it’s that thing, and you can tell me if it’s right or not
CW: Yes,

SJ: When you are working on a drawing you concentrate so hard on it that and when you have finished it kind of has a life of its own and then and then you let it go, do you know what I mean and it goes on the wall that’s what it seems like to me anyway.

EC: Yes, and your happy, do you laugh or you do?
CW: Yes, definitely.
EC: Do you get really excited when you start a painting?
CW: No, a first point then I start…then my head in order and that I want to paint a portrait.

EC: ….do you think of a person maybe or of something completely different or is it difficult to say.

CW: It’s difficult to say.

EC: but you are going really far you are very concentrated

CW: Yes, because I don’t have a dialogue or what ever for what I am doing, whether it’s art or what. My art I get done. I have always had to prove that. It’s the only project I can think of or in this case I didn’t even know….

SJ: What was good was when all your work was on the wall and you were giving a talk with all of your work about the physical kind of work you had done and the shapes on the wall and how that relates to the work you are doing now a days, where you are using eyes and nose and mouth and putting them in together and there is a word that you used to describe that when writing about portraits stuff that was really good and you if you don’t remember I can tell you

CW: I can’t remember.

SJ: You said it was it was about putting a jigsaw together.

CW: Oh yes.

SJ: Where as when you are just drawing out of your head different shapes, which you do as well. Which is interesting that you do both, and it has a different feel to it. ….you always say that you don’t know, or that you don’t want to get into talking about that?

CW: Yes

SJ: ….So I am going to ask you the question. Why do you think you don’t want to talk about what you are doing with your drawing?

CW: I haven’t got a preference.
EC: But you are in a nice state to paint.
CW: Yes.
EC: Not messy.
CW: What?
EC: Messy, but
CW: I know that I like to get messy. In my head, if you come to art and you don’t expect to get messy then you are in the wrong kind of club. I don’t get paid for this.

EC: Do you sometimes do something that you are thinking oh no that’s not the way I wanted to do it, I am not really happy with it. Does that happen to you?

CW: Like behind you, (my drawing on the wall) Over the door, then I just change it and I am happy with it.

EC: So you just change it?
CW: Yes I just change it.
EC: So what do you want to do next?
CW: More portraiEC: Yes, but you do many men
CW: I do women sometimes.
EC: And I wanted to ask you. Do you have a favourite artist
CW: No I just go through the books, no I don’t have a favourite artist at all.
SJ: Just grab them (books) Its interesting to see the books.
EC: Do you think that, do you sometimes think that tomorrow I am going to do this? Or not. Do you plan ahead?

CW: Not really no. Not basically. I just I think properly the next day.
EC: You make?
CW: I like to work hard.

Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space

SJ: Do you remember when we went in the shop Mawuena do you remember what the man was saying about all the different patterns, fabrics? What did he say?

Mawuena Kattah MK: He said that a couple, he said that a couple were from Africa, Ghana.

SJ: He was really interesting and was talking where the different patterns came from, and he said if you are from Ghana you have to have these patterns. And Mawuena said no I don’t want those ones I want these ones. So you chose them based on the colours and the patterns

MK: because I am British and I speak the language, but I am part of Africa, in Ghana

SJ: I think you’d like that shop too Ntiense. It’s a really good shop I would like to go back there

MK: I bought it in London. I come from England and was born in London, England and I’d like to go back there.

SJ: ….you are having a dress made aren’t you Mawuena?
MK: Yes, my sister is making it.
SJ: With the fabric (that you are working from) as well…..I can’t wait to see the paintings and the dress.
EC: Yes, you are making a self portrait with you in a dress? With the hair.
MK:The thing is with the hair is that you have to cover it with a head tie on it. A head scarf. That’s how you do your hair it goes on your head.

Moving to Clifton Wright's space

EC: That’s the one that you like from the book?
CW: I don’t start like that all the time. I got that one from a book. I like the old man in that picture.

SJ: Have you got any painters there? …..In the books I mean. I was just wondering what other painters you’ve got there in the books…. I see, is that another book there?

CW: Oh yes, this one, there is a Giacometti one there as well.
SJ: you got these off the shelf? Because when I come in there is always a different pile of books on your desk!

EC: Do you know why you like Giacometti?

CW: No

SJ: you said to me once actually Clifton. I think I asked you once what were your ideas and you said the materials were your ideas.

CW: Yes

SJ: That’s an interesting way of working.

CW: Yes, because I quite like to draw before I…………….
SJ: ……….I think it would be nice to take a quick look through these
EC: Do you do life drawing?
CW: Sorry what did you say?
EC: You know when somebody poses for you?
CW: No, I haven’t done that at all.
SJ: Is that something you’d like to do?
CW: Yes
SJ: Is that something you’d like to try Clifton?
CW: I wouldn’t mind, yes.
EC: Because you are quite technical
CW: Very technical.

SJ: It’s good to see the really abstract shapes and patterns and areas compared to the faces and how these two elements sometimes come together in a piece of work, where you’ve got a figure, you’ve got that attention to the shape of the body but then there is all those other abstract shapes combining, its interesting to see how they have come together and developed

EC: Do you give them titles?
CW: I gave that one the old man a title.
NA: Mine hasn’t got a title.
SJ: Has this work here not got any titles Ntinse?
NA: Got no title for it, its different to that one.
EC: Are they finished?
CW: Yes, its knowing when to stop.
NA: Many drawings
SJ: It’s quite a big pile of drawings. You have done a lot of work Clifton. A lot of work

CW: Yes, that’s why I have to take Friday afternoon off. Kind of a bit much
SJ: Yes sometimes you just need to have a break and come back to things
SJ That was from a book
EC: Yes yes yes
EC: Yes, that’s very nice.
CW: I have finished.
SJ: That’s great. I think we should move onto Mawuena

Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space

EC: How many photographs?!
SJ: yes, Really beautiful
EC: Have you been to Ghana?
MK: yes, many times
EC: Wow, did you take these photographs?
MK: No
EC: This one is wonderful! Who is this?
MK: That’s my aunty
EC: and the girl behind?
MK: that’s….
EC: amazing

MK: And that’s me, inside the taxi
EC: Yes, its hot over there? You like it?
MK: Yes, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty
MK: and that’s my aunty again and my big brother

EC: Ok, so you like the orchard

MK: Yes, that’s just me, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty.
EC: Very nice

EC: Wow!
MK: ….and that’s me
EC: Yes, that’s you
SJ: Are these all new photographs Mawuena
MK: Yes.
MK: ….and that’s me with my boy
EC: Wow, very handsome.
EC: So would you like to live in Ghana?
MK: Yes
SJ: Would you miss London?
MK: Yes
SJ: Difficult isn’t it
EC: What do you like? Do you like the food?
MK: Yes. Might go back to Ghana next year.
SJ: Are you going over there? With your mum?
MK: Yes. My mum and my aunty and my big brother.
EC: So do they paint?
MK: No
EC: None of them?
MK: No
EC: So you’re the only one and they followed you?
MK: Yes
EC: This is great, wonderful
SJ: You had been concentration on these abstract pieces, haven’t you Mawuena?
Mk: Yes, I took that piece of fabric home with me to my aunty and she is going to make a dress out of it. Its at home.
SJ: I can’t wait to see the dress?
EC: So why are they dressed in the same way?

MK: Because, this, they always wear different outfits. Because they have different tops. I have the old one at home.

EC: They are all from the same family
MK: Yes, I like that.
EC: I love the dress it’s beautiful
MK: and that’s that
EC: So are you painting your family when you paint?
MK: Yes. This one!

SJ: So how old are these photographs Mawuena? Are some of them newer than others?
MK: Yes.

SJ: Because some of them are very different (the) colours are very different aren’t they?

SJ: Gosh the colours in that are amazing!
EC: Yes, amazing
EC: So that was a special occasion?
MK: Yes, He’s dead.
EC: I see. And here…another special occasion?
MK: Yes. Dead.
EC: What was it?
MK: He’s just dead, you can’t see their faces and they turn their backs.
SJ: What would you be celebrating when you are wearing that?
MK: When someone is dead.
EC: Oh, I see.
SJ: Oh, yes again
EC: So it’s a burial? Who was the person? So was it a man?

SJ: Would the coffin have of been open and the person dressed?

MK: Yes.

EC: What about this photograph?

MK: That’s my mother with some of the nurses and doctors.

EC: What is she doing? Does she work at a hospital.

MK: Yes.

EC: (These are) Wonderful.
SJ: So when you look at photographs Manwenua what are you looking at? What are you looking for?
MK: People
SJ and what else? What else do you look for?
MK: Different kind of fabrics and happy faces of the people.
SJ: Where’s this?
MK: It’s a church
SJ: yes ok.
EC: Everybody goes to church? Do you go to church?
MK: I go twice a day at 10am and in the evening at 6.30
EC: Do you sing?
MK: yes. I go twice a week. I go Saturday and Sunday. Now I go once a week I am Christian as well
EC: So is it a happy mass? Do people sing?
MK: There’s like a lot of people who go to church and meet there. I go to church and we meet there and I am a Christian
MK: They put that on their head, to be baptized.
SJ: At the christening
MK: Yes, christening and funeral, then you are baptized.
EC: So now you are painting patterns instead of people?
MK: Yes
EC: Are you going to mix both?
MK: Look at the memory of it. One of me.
SJ: Of the church?
MK: Memories of people that have died. Memories.
SJ: Yes the memories are every strong.
EC: Is that the person who was buried?
MK: Yes.
EC: Who was he to you?
MK: That’s Toga, he is dead and that’s why we have to bury him.
SJ: Is he your uncle?
EC: Did you see him dead.
MK: No, I saw them taking him to the family.
SJ: Amazing composition.
EC: Yes.
MK: That’s him.
EC: So he is wearing that fabric?
MK: No. That’s him.
SJ: You wore a dress similar to that when we went to the fabric shop. The man in the shop was telling you where its from.
MK: Yes, he said that the material was from Ghana and I said yes. And he said how do you make a dress out of fabric and I said that you have to make it and you have to pay for it from the shop. That’s someone’s mum. And that’s me outside in my nightie.

SJ: So when you are in Ghana, does it rain or is it always sunny?
MK: No
EC: So what do they ask you to bring from here (When you go to Ghana)?
MK: Photos (laughs)

SJ: I can imagine them going through photos of you. Kind of right now!
NA: Its being in touch with her.
SJ: Yes that’s right. It is being in touch. That is a really good way to put it Nteinse. Being in touch with people and having photos
EC: So people cry a lot and then they have a meal. Together?
MK: Yes, we have a meal together.
EC: And then people stop crying?
MK: Yes.
EC: Were you sad as well?
MK: No
SJ: Did you not know them so well?
MK: Yes, that’s my Aunty.
EC: But its part of life isn’t it?
SJ: How long did the ceremony go on for? Is it more than one day?
MK: Yes.

EC: But he is wearing a different outfits?
SJ: He is.
EC: So people dress differently throughout the day.
MK: Yes
EC: So what is the ceiling made out of?
MK: Curtains
EC: Oh I see.
SJ: They are beautiful
EC: Is there a special food that you eat at a funeral?
MK: Yes, Ocra soup. Mmm…
(laughs)
SH: Do you fancy that Nteinse?
NA: Not ocra.

Looking at Mawuena’s portraits

EC: You did that one as well. Let’s talk about this one, I am very intrigued.
MK: That’s a man, that’s a woman, that’s a man and that’s a woman.
EC: So is that (part of the portrait) something I would know?
MK: Yes, that’s a moustache.
EC: Ok
SJ: It’s sort of taken over hasn’t it?
EC: Do you sometimes have dreams? Do you draw your dreams?
MK: Yes.
EC: Do you imagine? Like this?
MK: Yes
EC: And how do you feel before you make a picture? Do you feel very excited?
MK: Very excited.
EC: What’s your favourite part? Starting? When you are doing it or finishing it?
MK: When I look at a persons face, I can paint the water can paint the eye colour the eye, the nose correct, the mouth the ears, then I start doing and I finish and the hair and the body.
EC: That’s from photographs?
SJ: Some of those are from photographs. These faces, I think, you were working from some books. But that was a while ago, over a year ago. But all the new work is from photographs. You started to bring those in about a year ago didn’t you?
MK: Yes
EC: I like your colours
MK: Thank you.
SJ: Yes, lovely colours.
SJ: You work really, really fast……
MK: Yes, its true.
SJ: ….that would probably take about an hour, the one on the end there.
MK: Its true
SJ: Its quite interesting because when you (directed at Clifton) work on a portrait it can take you three days, can’t it?
CW: Yes.
SJ: I thought it was an interesting question Elisabeth when you asked what’s your favourite moment, the beginning, the middle or the end?

MK: The End!!! To write something.
SJ: You like to finish it and write something or show to people.
MK: Yes.

SJ: I think that is really interesting because everybody is different aren’t they. Some people just like to do it all the time and never finish anything, just keep going and going and going?

EC: When you are in Ghana do you paint over there? Or are you on holiday?
MK: No. On holiday.
EC: Relaxing.
SJ: Researching?
EC: And how long have you been painting for?
MK: Always

Conversation with Harold Offeh 17th June 2009

A conversation between Harold Offeh, Intoart artists Clifton Wright, Mawuena Kattah, Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye and Sam Jones at Studio Voltaire.

Sam: Who would like to start? Who has a question?

Clifton: What’s your inspiration for doing that type of work, artwork? …. Products of these different occasions?

Harold: I think, quite often I respond to things, to places, to situations, to music, TV shows. I’m quite influenced by lots of things that are, I guess what you might call popular culture, lots of things that are just around us. Very often I will respond to things that I see or that I experience - that I use within the work. So for example with the mammy piece (‘Being Mammy’) I remember it is responding to that film that I saw ‘Gone with the wind’ or to the Tom and Jerry cartoons; they had a mammy character and you only ever saw her feet. So I remember these things and then I come to a point where I think, oh this is quite interesting, how can I use this subject matter and respond to it?’

Very often it is things that are around me. For you, is it a specific thing that you respond to?

C: It depends how I feel, what mood I’m in. Like if it’s people, I like to give myself a challenge, a difficulty and work around it.

H: So it might be that you’re responding to how you’re feeling at a certain point maybe and then you’ll start working in response to that. Is that similar for you guys as well? What influences you?

Ntiense: Not in particular. I don’t want to say now.

H: That’s fine.

S: Ntiense, the time you spend in here writing and thinking about work is very different to the time you spend in the studio making work. I remember last time somebody came to visit, Elizabeth came in and you had a very interesting conversation about how words relate to visual artwork and how you use words. How the words are then seen. At the moment Ntiense you’re thinking about how your titles and names and poems are included with the drawings and prints that you make aren’t you? I don’t know if you want to say anything about that and how you’re working with words and images and prints and drawings?

N: They’re quite intimate. I’m searching for…

S: Shall I grab those because they’re really interesting, do you want to explain how you did those?

N: I went on the internet and I searched for the names of them and I print them out and I tried to copy it. I figure out my ideas without writing what I need from my print out. I print out about 40 because ones that are new ones and the ones in the folder.

S: It was these Ntiense, all these different potential titles. And then you’ve edited and chosen specific ones. Where did you get all these titles from and words? What were you looking at?

N: I remember

S: It’s really interesting the relationship between the words and the titles and what you’ve chosen from searching with those words on the internet and putting them together, as a research project.

N: Yeah.

H: This is quite an interesting one ‘Together in the evening’, I guess that’s the moon, its this night scene and then there’s this couple with an umbrella. I guess its quite poetic in a way.

S: Are titles really important to you in your artwork? Would you say they’re important?

N: Yeah.

S: You had some really interesting ideas about how you talk about your work as well, in terms of presenting your artwork. Clifton and Ntiense have been writing as well about how when it comes to it, to stand up and talk about artwork and show artwork at the same time. We’ve been thinking of all the technology that can be used, we’re going through that process at the moment. Ntiense you wanted to get a slide projector to play around with images and text together didn’t you?

N: Yeah

S: …and Clifton you’ve got lots of different ideas, things that we will try out as well.

C: Yeah



N: I was thinking, (about) the plan for the ideas and how you did the film?

H: So do you mean in terms of how I made the film or how I talk about the film?

N: Yeah

H: Well if I start with how I talk about it, I think that very often for me it’s often starts with talking about the process maybe, giving people an insight into how I made this thing. For example when I was talking about the film that I made, the film in Brazil –
I was talking about why I was dancing, the fact that I was dancing because I’d had these lessons, the costume and where that came from. So that’s often breaking it down and talking about the actual process of how this thing that the audience is looking at, how it was made. In that way it opens things out a bit more for the audience because they get an idea of how I went about constructing it and making it. Very often for me that is the starting point. From my experience there are some artists that like to talk about what it means, so not how it was made but what the artist feels it means for them. I quite often do that. I know there are some artists that don’t like doing that. There are a lot of artists that feel that they want people to get a meaning for themselves out of the work, if they say their intention and what it means for them that it stops other people, I don’t know if I agree with that personally but I think that is maybe a judgment that as an artists you have to make really. Some people feel they want to leave it open so that anyone can get anything they want from it whereas other people feel happy to talk about some of their ideas and the meanings. I don’t know how you feel about that?

N: I feel it’s good, it’s inspired me. The films that me, Maweuna, Doreen and Clifton did, the parts of it that we’re involved with, the talking, the sound and how you represent the work.

In yours, is there some of an echo sound? And you hear the words of the background and when you stand back there’s some acting going on with women…I think it’s suspicious because I’m thinking about the echo and the sound protector of someone, if someone is lying down on the floor.

S: The way that your film starts?

N: Yeah, you’re involved in it. I think it’s particular because I think it’s good.

S: Maybe then I’d ask you the question Ntiense; in your artwork are you telling a story in your artwork? Or not?

N: That isn’t related to the artwork

S: …Because I think that’s really interesting that you make the distinction that you’re not telling a story although you have all these titles about different characters.
I suppose - why do you give titles to all your work and you create all these characters and at the same time you don’t want there to be a definite story? Can you explain that?

N: Well it’s a theme. When you say the storyline, it’s like all the emotion of the themes. When you do a theme, two different types of what you’re saying about the characters. What you’re saying about the story, its in a line…When you turn to the front paper and the back paper its like a story. You’re retelling the story. When you’re telling a story all the characters are in it. The artwork is like a theme of work. It’s the same but different, one or two sections, you’re doing a theme of work, its why I’m doing the same thing.

The ones (artwork) on the wall are day and night, it’s the same thing.
It is actually a theme of separate work.

S: I probably shouldn’t use the word story, but I have to use that, there’s the circus, maybe that’s a theme and not a story?

N: I invented that one

S: Yeah you invented that, the idea of the circus as a way of bringing together lots of different themes; landscape, lights, the idea of escape

N: Portraits

S: I think that’s really interesting Ntiense, the idea of its not a story but it’s a way of pulling lots of stories together.

H: Then I think that the way you display it is really important to that, to try and communicate that to the audience, I think its simple things, we’re often quite trained because we’re so used to stories and narratives to try to read things in that way so for example showing a row of images, that immediately sets it up for a story, people are looking from left to right, one image follows another, looking for a story. So if you wanted to get away from that, if you didn’t want people to read it as boom, boom, boom, you might try and mix it up or you might try and group or cluster images together so you’ve got a whole set of images in the corner. You might have one set there and one set there. It stops people from doing the really simple thing of putting things together.

Clifton’s questions to Harold

S: Clifton have you been writing questions? You’ve got four questions? Good that’s great. Do you want to fire away?

C: I’m going to do it the backward way of asking question four first, I like to do things like that…Where is the furthest place that you have been to so far with your art? I like asking hard questions. Can you remember?

H: In terms of distance, er, I think it’s Cape Town in South Africa, oh no I’ve been to China that’s further isn’t it? We went to a province called…near a city called Quang Ho near Hong Kong. That’s probably the furthest.

C: How do you feel when you’re doing the art and what are you thinking when you’re doing the art?

H: I think it depends what sort of stage it is, I really like doing research and like finding out about things. One of the reasons that I got into doing art and still like doing art is that its often for me about finding out about new things and acquiring knowledge so the fact that it allows me to explore ideas that I might have or things that I don’t understand. I often use it like ‘Oh I don’t know about this, I’m going to go off and find out about it’. So that is really enjoyable, so there’s that research stage. And then it often comes to a point where it’s like a bit of a challenge, it’s a problem solving exercise, where its like I’ve got to make a piece of work or there’s a question I need to answer or something. I quite like that because that’s a real challenge because I have to really concentrate. And then you come up with an idea. And then I think the bit that I less enjoy is actually making it. It’s like ok I’ve done all this nice research where I’ve been messing around. I’ve done the problem bit…’

S: Is it like that for anyone else?

Laughter

H: …and then I come up with the idea and its like ok, right, I’ve got to do this now and then that bit I don’t necessarily enjoy as much because I get a bit anxious. You’ve got to make it perfect, and do it again. And I’d actually be quite happy to get someone else to do all of that, all of it. Sometimes I enjoy it but generally that’s the hardest bit for me.

C: Fair enough!

H: How is it for you guys?

C: I don’t mind it at all

N: It’s not too bad

H: Do you enjoy just doing the work, as well as doing the ideas and the research, the process?

N: Yeah

S: What do you like doing in the studio Maweuna? You do lots of different things, you do painting and sometimes you do prints?

M: I like painting

H: But that is actually a different way of working, that is something I should maybe do more of because I what I tend to do is sit down quite coldly and come up with an idea and then try and make the idea. But there’s another way of working where you’re using materials, where you’re drawing or you’re doing painting or sculpture where actually it works the other way around - the work comes out of the process of doing that. Which is maybe what I don’t do enough of, which is maybe why it’s a bit more enjoyable for you guys! It’s that thing of experimenting that’s what I’m trying to say

S: You can have that learning experience, the challenges are there. Ntiense you spend a lot of time doing research and thinking carefully about what you want to achieve in terms of someone looking at your work. So I wondered if you have any comment about what Harold said about it, about thinking and researching being an important part? Is the research an important part of what you do in your work, is it something you enjoy doing?

N: That’s part of the artwork and one is separate to that is my written work

S: Ok so there’s written and research and then there’s doing. Something I find in terms of books, which are sort of my thing, the relationship between words and images in books and the way that an artist might write in a particular way and there’s something really exciting about that because it relates to something they’re doing visually, and at the same time maybe a writer who doesn’t use visual communication at all might write something about an artist, and they’re looking at something and writing. It’s really interesting that relationship between words and images.

And it’s something that as you go into a gallery suddenly becomes something that people have an expectation that there will be certain words used or even certain words not used. So there are all sorts of decisions around how, in that space the artwork that is made in the studio here, changes or develops not necessarily for the worse and its about taking control of that I suppose.

H: It’s interesting in a gallery how important text becomes whether that’s the title, the labels or text panels and you go in sometimes they give you a leaflet or a bit of writing on.

N: I think that’d be good for me, yes

S: You like the idea of having a leaflet and words and panels? Are you going to have words that are your artwork as well?

N: Yes

S: So there are all those layers. We went to see the Ian Hamilton Finlay room at Tate Britain a few weeks ago, with the dinghy and the poems that were painted on the wall…

N: Was it in a line? The one on the wall, the ship and there were words coming down.

S: Yeah it was in a curve, yeah, just as a reference. So I think, were you talking on Friday Ntiense about how you are going to make words part of your artwork? Were you talking with Guy and Ella about that? How you’re going to bring it together?

…Clifton did you have another question

C: What art would you do the next time we see you and would it be different?

H: Oh, (laughs) that’s a good question. Well I think there are sort of two related ways of working. I’ve been working on this series of videos and photographs that again I’m performing in that relate to specific album covers. So I’ve tried to use the album covers as starting points for performances. So there’s this one, which is by a singer called Grace Jones. I was quite interested in this image and for a long time I thought this was an amazing really striking image because she’s holding this amazing pose. Then a few years ago I discovered that actually the image is very altered, it’s a composite, so it’s two photos put together. So actually this position, which is a dance position, it’s called Arabesque when you’re on one leg its called an Arabesque but its almost impossible, well it is impossible to do this image. And the top half of her body was photographed facing on and the bottom half of her body is in profile. And they’ve put the two photos together. So you’d have to pretty much break your rib cage to get this position.

N: When she does that, holding her foot, does it hurt, when she’s had that pose, does it hurt?

H: Yeah, it’s quite hard and the fact that her leg is so high up. I think there are a few professional dancers who might be able to get fairly close to it. So I did this photograph where I’m trying to do it. If you remember the other image, it’s pretty difficult to do. So if you look at this image very much her shoulders are square on and you can see all her front there. And then in my pathetic attempt, you know my leg isn’t as far up, my shoulders aren’t square on. I’m not as twisted round to the front as much. So what I was interested in was in the impossibility of that image and how it in a way presents an ideal image of perfection, this amazing body. And then actually someone ordinary like me trying to do it. And there’s a gap between, you know like a lot of images we see are really manipulated and sort of stretched (and this is quite stretched as well actually) to make them look really perfect and then that’s completely different to the reality of trying to do that.

N: To represent the picture you know you put the album cover, the front and the back. It has the record inside. Does that picture represent the front cover or the album?

H: Yes it does, it was based on vinyl records, I‘ve got a very small vinyl record collection. Its 12 inches so it’s quite big and the original image that I had is based on that. And when I did the photograph, my photograph, I then made an album cover size, so it’s 12 inches as well, like the original album. So the two things relate so when I come to display it hopefully looks like a big album cover, big album cover size.
So came back to your question Clifton I’m doing a series of these that are based on these other album covers as well.

There was another part of your question as well wasn’t there? Did I answer everything?

C: There’s the last one. What are you doing as far as art is concerned - the same thing or something new to do with art?

H: Did you say ‘Why?’

No I said. What are you doing as far as art is concerned - the same thing or something new to do with art?

H: That’s a good question. I think it’s a bit of both really. I think there are certain processes that I use that tend to be quite similar whether I use myself in video or performance. One of the other things that I’m starting to do now is collaborate with other people, which is perhaps something I haven’t talked about. So I’m quite interested in that and that is partly in response to the fact that quite a lot of the stuff I’ve done up ‘til now has just been me and that gets a bit boring sometimes really. Just like talking to yourself..

C: Going mad!

H: Yeah a little bit. And its quite nice to work with other people and do projects where maybe I’m not in them, which is quite nice. Then I don’t have to see myself all the time, which as I said is quite boring.

So there’s a certain kind of method that I work with whether that’s working with other people or using myself. But then there are also little new ideas or the subject matter of things maybe, new things that I’m interested in doing. For example I’ve had this idea for a while about doing these performances and these events that are based on these Japanese gameshows, ‘80s Japanese gameshows that I’ve got a collection from YouTube of, which are really amazing, where basically they invite teams of people, it might be family or friends and they create images together as performances.

S: Have you seen any of those?

H: They’re pretty wild actually. There’s one where they do a ten-pin bowling alley piece where they’ll have people dressed up as pins, you know like in a bowling alley. Each person will sort of stand there. So basically four people will make the ball, so they’ll all put themselves together into a ball shape and then they’ll be rolled down and they’ll hit the people who are dressed as pins. Or you’ll get another one where they’ll make a scene, where people will be dressed up and arranged. I saw one where they make a tree so they’re all standing on top of each other and then there’s a nest and then people are birds in the nest, they’re using their hands as the you know…So I’m quite interested in the potential of doing that as a project, so that’s maybe something new.

C: Laughing, I can’t believe it!

H: Yeah you should check it out. There are loads of them!

S: The one I saw was called Takashi’s castle, that was really funny. But I felt really sorry for the people that were playing it because they really injured themselves…but they’re always smiling!?

H: Yeah they always throw themselves into these tasks

S: They are amazing to watch, especially as they’re all in costume. Is that your last question (Clifton)? Has anyone else got a question? Because we could watch the films that you’ve all made and maybe Harold might have some questions. We could have another quick chat about the relevance of what we’ve been talking about.

Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio at Studio Voltaire and talking about work being made in the Intoart studio.

Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio

Clifton Wright CW: It’s like my work already

Elisabeth Le Court EC: Yes? Well, I like to paint people as well like you (laugh)

Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye NA: (laugh)Is it, It is erm funny? (Looking at one of
Elisabeth’s paintings)

EC: Yes, well some people see cat. Some people……
SJ: Can you see the animals…the penguins……yes?
EC: Erm…So I don’t place my work
NA: (Do you) like short hair?
EC: Sorry?
NA: This had short hair?
EC: yes yes, So I paint them from imagination, kind of
NA: it is…erm….Is it John…is it. John…Mandel with no hair? Well without hair
EC: well, It’s difficult to paint hair isn’t it but that’s not..
NA: is it another man
SJ: Do you like painting men?

EC: Oh, I don’t mind. Yes, I don’t really think, yes, I don’t really know what happens, sometimes, usually I don’t really have a finished idea in my mind? It’s probably the same as you? and then I see how it goes, and see if it turns into a woman or a man

SJ: you probably have something to say about that (addressing Clifton)……I am always asking questions, questions. Well not just me actually, Lenka (Clayton) was asking as well…..What you are thinking, because?

CW: yes

SJ: when you are working you are concentrating so hard….What’s the thought process?

EC: You don’t know because you don’t think about what you are thinking you just think about it
SJ: Yes

EC: Sometimes, I do have a slight idea of what I want to do….yes. I feel I have got to let it out. So that’s a course that I am doing at the moment

NA: Is that, is it a portrait.
EC: Kind of
NA: Is it a portrait
EC: Yes its…what do you mean?
NA: Like…peoples faces, portrait and body

EC: Apparently someone came here yesterday and he said….and I think he is right that if you turn the canvas here it would be much stronger, probably, because it is a bit weak here because there is no, what he said it is not very well drawn….. we don’t know if its legs, if they, we don’t really know was it is and when I did it I was quite happy with it for people to imagine what they want, I think it is too loose for anyone to imagine so I think you need to give more, a little bit for peoples imagination to go further away

SJ: So when you are doing a piece like that would you be working from life or would it all come from your imagination, from your head.

EC: yes it would come from imagination. But yesterday, I because he did tell me about the drawing and I really would like to draw from nature and I would have been really happy to have someone posing for me, I think, yes, I quite like that, yes I think it is a good idea. Yes. This one I did…You probably saw it

SJ: Yes. That was in the Studio Voltaire Annual Member’s Exhibition
EC: I think it is quite successfully one , well, but I started with this, but I never really do from drawing, bit I think is it is a good idea to maybe have something…

SJ: Its an amazing photograph.

EC: yes I know its really funny and her face looks like really its from another era, as well

NA: Where did you get it?
EC: Pardon?
NA: Where did you get that?
EC: From a charity shop. Because you all draw from images and references.
NA: Woman?
EC; Mexican, yes
NA: …..erm actually you are to do some more people some more animals?

EC: Well, yes I have one bird there, on his own, buts is usually people. I think it is my main interest is people…and the body as well and sculpture. So it was kind a like, Sometimes when you feel, I used to work more on like emotions before, everything was about emotion and letting emotions out and making sometimes you could feel that you can’t a little bit like this, but erm…the more I work like this the more I kind of….

SJ: Yes

EC: ….the more I work like this the more I use it like therapy as well. And now I am more, it’s another direction. It’ s another direction. I was doing some handkerchiefs. I was embroidering handkerchiefs like this one. And I was more, and it was all the emotions all the crying, because handkerchiefs are quite tactile as well and when we cry and all the snot and everything keeps on the handkerchief, but

NA: Snotty?

(laughs)

EC: so the embroidery was like all your emotion and all your pain goes into the handkerchief and then kind of you let it out again.

NA: did you do any more flowers or plants? Or stuff like that or leaves or flowers?
EC: I did a flower because there is hope, I like to think (all laugh)…erm and I did..
EC: this one is an earlier one
NA: What material?
EC: It’s a map, its paper
NA: It’s a map. Its paper
EC: I take a map and I cut it, when I was living in france, because I like, before the painting I was working more on the body. I was making clothes and I was making dresses to represent the body, so…

SJ: Do you always start with eyes or the shape of the head or is it always different?
EC: It is always different, Usually with the eyes…where can I show you?
EC; This one I don’t know if its finished?
NA: Is it dark? The Back
SJ: Yes, its very dark.
EC: Like a shadow
SJ: Yes, like a shadow like the shadows are taking over?
EC: I don’t know
EC: Yes maybe I should add some colour. Making like, No? Is that what you meant?
NA: That’s not actually what I meant…I thought that….
SJ: I really like the way that the two merge together. The fore ground and the back ground

EC: I’ve got more to show you if you want.
SJ: Yes, definitely
EC: I had an experience. I did this and I was happy with the breast, but not the rest
NA: Are they books?
EC: So I kept the breast
NA: Are they books

EC: Well I don’t know? I just did them to delete the images. I don’t know if its finished, what do you think? I’m not sure. What do you think?

SJ: Its really interesting, these abstract shapes, then suddenly there is something real.
EC: like a window….and this one I am not sure about. I think I should re-work on them.

SJ: You spend a lot of time re-working things (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Yes
EC: You come back to your paintings sometimes?
CW: Yes, lots of layers. like three or four layers at least. Argh
NA: What is this?
EC: Its somebody who dies (group laughs)
NA: Is it a mystery?

EC: Maybe she is running away or maybe escaping or I don’t know…what do you think? Going to a ball or?

NA: I think she is looking for…I think she is looking for love, looking for her parents I think she is looking for her…and looking for love

SJ: Her parents

EC: Yes, exactly like a princess kind of a romantic, I feel the same, she wants her freedom, maybe or something like that.

SJ: Like Elenor Rigby or something?
EC: Can you relate to something like this or is it too girly (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Well kind of, it is to be honest.

SJ: So we have got time just to go and have a chat about peoples work? Thanks Elizabeth that was really, really interesting.

Moving to Clifton Wright's space in the Intoart studio

SJ: It might be good to sort of start with someone’s space?
CW: Yes
SJ: Talk about….you could actually move…

CW: I’ll start with mine

SJ: You were talking about different layers of paint. Weren’t you?

CW: Yes

EC: So did you start, did it look completely different at the start and then paint over it? And then you changed it all?

CW: I don’t start with the paint originally, I start with charcoal and I pour something over it first, then I will use acrylic paint, with little dark and light bits of paint, I start of with lighter bits here then darker bit here, and then darker here, lighter here.

EC: So is it a self portrait?

CW: I can’t remember. I have a problem remembering. Not self portrait, but portraits one after another, I can’t remember, I have several self portraits, I can’t remember.

SJ: I wasn’t here when you did that.
SJ: This is quite a good question, actually, if you can remember.

EC: He looks older than you. What part of the painting do you prefer? When you start the painting or in the middle of it?

CW: I forget!
EC:You know.
SJ: I think it’s that thing, and you can tell me if it’s right or not
CW: Yes,

SJ: When you are working on a drawing you concentrate so hard on it that and when you have finished it kind of has a life of its own and then and then you let it go, do you know what I mean and it goes on the wall that’s what it seems like to me anyway.

EC: Yes, and your happy, do you laugh or you do?
CW: Yes, definitely.
EC: Do you get really excited when you start a painting?
CW: No, a first point then I start…then my head in order and that I want to paint a portrait.

EC: ….do you think of a person maybe or of something completely different or is it difficult to say.

CW: It’s difficult to say.

EC: but you are going really far you are very concentrated

CW: Yes, because I don’t have a dialogue or what ever for what I am doing, whether it’s art or what. My art I get done. I have always had to prove that. It’s the only project I can think of or in this case I didn’t even know….

SJ: What was good was when all your work was on the wall and you were giving a talk with all of your work about the physical kind of work you had done and the shapes on the wall and how that relates to the work you are doing now a days, where you are using eyes and nose and mouth and putting them in together and there is a word that you used to describe that when writing about portraits stuff that was really good and you if you don’t remember I can tell you

CW: I can’t remember.

SJ: You said it was it was about putting a jigsaw together.

CW: Oh yes.

SJ: Where as when you are just drawing out of your head different shapes, which you do as well. Which is interesting that you do both, and it has a different feel to it. ….you always say that you don’t know, or that you don’t want to get into talking about that?

CW: Yes

SJ: ….So I am going to ask you the question. Why do you think you don’t want to talk about what you are doing with your drawing?

CW: I haven’t got a preference.
EC: But you are in a nice state to paint.
CW: Yes.
EC: Not messy.
CW: What?
EC: Messy, but
CW: I know that I like to get messy. In my head, if you come to art and you don’t expect to get messy then you are in the wrong kind of club. I don’t get paid for this.

EC: Do you sometimes do something that you are thinking oh no that’s not the way I wanted to do it, I am not really happy with it. Does that happen to you?

CW: Like behind you, (my drawing on the wall) Over the door, then I just change it and I am happy with it.

EC: So you just change it?
CW: Yes I just change it.
EC: So what do you want to do next?
CW: More portraiEC: Yes, but you do many men
CW: I do women sometimes.
EC: And I wanted to ask you. Do you have a favourite artist
CW: No I just go through the books, no I don’t have a favourite artist at all.
SJ: Just grab them (books) Its interesting to see the books.
EC: Do you think that, do you sometimes think that tomorrow I am going to do this? Or not. Do you plan ahead?

CW: Not really no. Not basically. I just I think properly the next day.
EC: You make?
CW: I like to work hard.

Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space

SJ: Do you remember when we went in the shop Mawuena do you remember what the man was saying about all the different patterns, fabrics? What did he say?

Mawuena Kattah MK: He said that a couple, he said that a couple were from Africa, Ghana.

SJ: He was really interesting and was talking where the different patterns came from, and he said if you are from Ghana you have to have these patterns. And Mawuena said no I don’t want those ones I want these ones. So you chose them based on the colours and the patterns

MK: because I am British and I speak the language, but I am part of Africa, in Ghana

SJ: I think you’d like that shop too Ntiense. It’s a really good shop I would like to go back there

MK: I bought it in London. I come from England and was born in London, England and I’d like to go back there.

SJ: ….you are having a dress made aren’t you Mawuena?
MK: Yes, my sister is making it.
SJ: With the fabric (that you are working from) as well…..I can’t wait to see the paintings and the dress.
EC: Yes, you are making a self portrait with you in a dress? With the hair.
MK:The thing is with the hair is that you have to cover it with a head tie on it. A head scarf. That’s how you do your hair it goes on your head.

Moving to Clifton Wright's space

EC: That’s the one that you like from the book?
CW: I don’t start like that all the time. I got that one from a book. I like the old man in that picture.

SJ: Have you got any painters there? …..In the books I mean. I was just wondering what other painters you’ve got there in the books…. I see, is that another book there?

CW: Oh yes, this one, there is a Giacometti one there as well.
SJ: you got these off the shelf? Because when I come in there is always a different pile of books on your desk!

EC: Do you know why you like Giacometti?

CW: No

SJ: you said to me once actually Clifton. I think I asked you once what were your ideas and you said the materials were your ideas.

CW: Yes

SJ: That’s an interesting way of working.

CW: Yes, because I quite like to draw before I…………….
SJ: ……….I think it would be nice to take a quick look through these
EC: Do you do life drawing?
CW: Sorry what did you say?
EC: You know when somebody poses for you?
CW: No, I haven’t done that at all.
SJ: Is that something you’d like to do?
CW: Yes
SJ: Is that something you’d like to try Clifton?
CW: I wouldn’t mind, yes.
EC: Because you are quite technical
CW: Very technical.

SJ: It’s good to see the really abstract shapes and patterns and areas compared to the faces and how these two elements sometimes come together in a piece of work, where you’ve got a figure, you’ve got that attention to the shape of the body but then there is all those other abstract shapes combining, its interesting to see how they have come together and developed

EC: Do you give them titles?
CW: I gave that one the old man a title.
NA: Mine hasn’t got a title.
SJ: Has this work here not got any titles Ntinse?
NA: Got no title for it, its different to that one.
EC: Are they finished?
CW: Yes, its knowing when to stop.
NA: Many drawings
SJ: It’s quite a big pile of drawings. You have done a lot of work Clifton. A lot of work

CW: Yes, that’s why I have to take Friday afternoon off. Kind of a bit much
SJ: Yes sometimes you just need to have a break and come back to things
SJ That was from a book
EC: Yes yes yes
EC: Yes, that’s very nice.
CW: I have finished.
SJ: That’s great. I think we should move onto Mawuena

Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space

EC: How many photographs?!
SJ: yes, Really beautiful
EC: Have you been to Ghana?
MK: yes, many times
EC: Wow, did you take these photographs?
MK: No
EC: This one is wonderful! Who is this?
MK: That’s my aunty
EC: and the girl behind?
MK: that’s….
EC: amazing

MK: And that’s me, inside the taxi
EC: Yes, its hot over there? You like it?
MK: Yes, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty
MK: and that’s my aunty again and my big brother

EC: Ok, so you like the orchard

MK: Yes, that’s just me, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty.
EC: Very nice

EC: Wow!
MK: ….and that’s me
EC: Yes, that’s you
SJ: Are these all new photographs Mawuena
MK: Yes.
MK: ….and that’s me with my boy
EC: Wow, very handsome.
EC: So would you like to live in Ghana?
MK: Yes
SJ: Would you miss London?
MK: Yes
SJ: Difficult isn’t it
EC: What do you like? Do you like the food?
MK: Yes. Might go back to Ghana next year.
SJ: Are you going over there? With your mum?
MK: Yes. My mum and my aunty and my big brother.
EC: So do they paint?
MK: No
EC: None of them?
MK: No
EC: So you’re the only one and they followed you?
MK: Yes
EC: This is great, wonderful
SJ: You had been concentration on these abstract pieces, haven’t you Mawuena?
Mk: Yes, I took that piece of fabric home with me to my aunty and she is going to make a dress out of it. Its at home.
SJ: I can’t wait to see the dress?
EC: So why are they dressed in the same way?

MK: Because, this, they always wear different outfits. Because they have different tops. I have the old one at home.

EC: They are all from the same family
MK: Yes, I like that.
EC: I love the dress it’s beautiful
MK: and that’s that
EC: So are you painting your family when you paint?
MK: Yes. This one!

SJ: So how old are these photographs Mawuena? Are some of them newer than others?
MK: Yes.

SJ: Because some of them are very different (the) colours are very different aren’t they?

SJ: Gosh the colours in that are amazing!
EC: Yes, amazing
EC: So that was a special occasion?
MK: Yes, He’s dead.
EC: I see. And here…another special occasion?
MK: Yes. Dead.
EC: What was it?
MK: He’s just dead, you can’t see their faces and they turn their backs.
SJ: What would you be celebrating when you are wearing that?
MK: When someone is dead.
EC: Oh, I see.
SJ: Oh, yes again
EC: So it’s a burial? Who was the person? So was it a man?

SJ: Would the coffin have of been open and the person dressed?

MK: Yes.

EC: What about this photograph?

MK: That’s my mother with some of the nurses and doctors.

EC: What is she doing? Does she work at a hospital.

MK: Yes.

EC: (These are) Wonderful.
SJ: So when you look at photographs Manwenua what are you looking at? What are you looking for?
MK: People
SJ and what else? What else do you look for?
MK: Different kind of fabrics and happy faces of the people.
SJ: Where’s this?
MK: It’s a church
SJ: yes ok.
EC: Everybody goes to church? Do you go to church?
MK: I go twice a day at 10am and in the evening at 6.30
EC: Do you sing?
MK: yes. I go twice a week. I go Saturday and Sunday. Now I go once a week I am Christian as well
EC: So is it a happy mass? Do people sing?
MK: There’s like a lot of people who go to church and meet there. I go to church and we meet there and I am a Christian
MK: They put that on their head, to be baptized.
SJ: At the christening
MK: Yes, christening and funeral, then you are baptized.
EC: So now you are painting patterns instead of people?
MK: Yes
EC: Are you going to mix both?
MK: Look at the memory of it. One of me.
SJ: Of the church?
MK: Memories of people that have died. Memories.
SJ: Yes the memories are every strong.
EC: Is that the person who was buried?
MK: Yes.
EC: Who was he to you?
MK: That’s Toga, he is dead and that’s why we have to bury him.
SJ: Is he your uncle?
EC: Did you see him dead.
MK: No, I saw them taking him to the family.
SJ: Amazing composition.
EC: Yes.
MK: That’s him.
EC: So he is wearing that fabric?
MK: No. That’s him.
SJ: You wore a dress similar to that when we went to the fabric shop. The man in the shop was telling you where its from.
MK: Yes, he said that the material was from Ghana and I said yes. And he said how do you make a dress out of fabric and I said that you have to make it and you have to pay for it from the shop. That’s someone’s mum. And that’s me outside in my nightie.

SJ: So when you are in Ghana, does it rain or is it always sunny?
MK: No
EC: So what do they ask you to bring from here (When you go to Ghana)?
MK: Photos (laughs)

SJ: I can imagine them going through photos of you. Kind of right now!
NA: Its being in touch with her.
SJ: Yes that’s right. It is being in touch. That is a really good way to put it Nteinse. Being in touch with people and having photos
EC: So people cry a lot and then they have a meal. Together?
MK: Yes, we have a meal together.
EC: And then people stop crying?
MK: Yes.
EC: Were you sad as well?
MK: No
SJ: Did you not know them so well?
MK: Yes, that’s my Aunty.
EC: But its part of life isn’t it?
SJ: How long did the ceremony go on for? Is it more than one day?
MK: Yes.

EC: But he is wearing a different outfits?
SJ: He is.
EC: So people dress differently throughout the day.
MK: Yes
EC: So what is the ceiling made out of?
MK: Curtains
EC: Oh I see.
SJ: They are beautiful
EC: Is there a special food that you eat at a funeral?
MK: Yes, Ocra soup. Mmm…
(laughs)
SH: Do you fancy that Nteinse?
NA: Not ocra.

Looking at Mawuena’s portraits

EC: You did that one as well. Let’s talk about this one, I am very intrigued.
MK: That’s a man, that’s a woman, that’s a man and that’s a woman.
EC: So is that (part of the portrait) something I would know?
MK: Yes, that’s a moustache.
EC: Ok
SJ: It’s sort of taken over hasn’t it?
EC: Do you sometimes have dreams? Do you draw your dreams?
MK: Yes.
EC: Do you imagine? Like this?
MK: Yes
EC: And how do you feel before you make a picture? Do you feel very excited?
MK: Very excited.
EC: What’s your favourite part? Starting? When you are doing it or finishing it?
MK: When I look at a persons face, I can paint the water can paint the eye colour the eye, the nose correct, the mouth the ears, then I start doing and I finish and the hair and the body.
EC: That’s from photographs?
SJ: Some of those are from photographs. These faces, I think, you were working from some books. But that was a while ago, over a year ago. But all the new work is from photographs. You started to bring those in about a year ago didn’t you?
MK: Yes
EC: I like your colours
MK: Thank you.
SJ: Yes, lovely colours.
SJ: You work really, really fast……
MK: Yes, its true.
SJ: ….that would probably take about an hour, the one on the end there.
MK: Its true
SJ: Its quite interesting because when you (directed at Clifton) work on a portrait it can take you three days, can’t it?
CW: Yes.
SJ: I thought it was an interesting question Elisabeth when you asked what’s your favourite moment, the beginning, the middle or the end?

MK: The End!!! To write something.
SJ: You like to finish it and write something or show to people.
MK: Yes.

SJ: I think that is really interesting because everybody is different aren’t they. Some people just like to do it all the time and never finish anything, just keep going and going and going?

EC: When you are in Ghana do you paint over there? Or are you on holiday?
MK: No. On holiday.
EC: Relaxing.
SJ: Researching?
EC: And how long have you been painting for?
MK: Always

Conversation with Harold Offeh 17th June 2009

A conversation between Harold Offeh, Intoart artists Clifton Wright, Mawuena Kattah, Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye and Sam Jones at Studio Voltaire.

Sam: Who would like to start? Who has a question?

Clifton: What’s your inspiration for doing that type of work, artwork? …. Products of these different occasions?

Harold: I think, quite often I respond to things, to places, to situations, to music, TV shows. I’m quite influenced by lots of things that are, I guess what you might call popular culture, lots of things that are just around us. Very often I will respond to things that I see or that I experience - that I use within the work. So for example with the mammy piece (‘Being Mammy’) I remember it is responding to that film that I saw ‘Gone with the wind’ or to the Tom and Jerry cartoons; they had a mammy character and you only ever saw her feet. So I remember these things and then I come to a point where I think, oh this is quite interesting, how can I use this subject matter and respond to it?’

Very often it is things that are around me. For you, is it a specific thing that you respond to?

C: It depends how I feel, what mood I’m in. Like if it’s people, I like to give myself a challenge, a difficulty and work around it.

H: So it might be that you’re responding to how you’re feeling at a certain point maybe and then you’ll start working in response to that. Is that similar for you guys as well? What influences you?

Ntiense: Not in particular. I don’t want to say now.

H: That’s fine.

S: Ntiense, the time you spend in here writing and thinking about work is very different to the time you spend in the studio making work. I remember last time somebody came to visit, Elizabeth came in and you had a very interesting conversation about how words relate to visual artwork and how you use words. How the words are then seen. At the moment Ntiense you’re thinking about how your titles and names and poems are included with the drawings and prints that you make aren’t you? I don’t know if you want to say anything about that and how you’re working with words and images and prints and drawings?

N: They’re quite intimate. I’m searching for…

S: Shall I grab those because they’re really interesting, do you want to explain how you did those?

N: I went on the internet and I searched for the names of them and I print them out and I tried to copy it. I figure out my ideas without writing what I need from my print out. I print out about 40 because ones that are new ones and the ones in the folder.

S: It was these Ntiense, all these different potential titles. And then you’ve edited and chosen specific ones. Where did you get all these titles from and words? What were you looking at?

N: I remember

S: It’s really interesting the relationship between the words and the titles and what you’ve chosen from searching with those words on the internet and putting them together, as a research project.

N: Yeah.

H: This is quite an interesting one ‘Together in the evening’, I guess that’s the moon, its this night scene and then there’s this couple with an umbrella. I guess its quite poetic in a way.

S: Are titles really important to you in your artwork? Would you say they’re important?

N: Yeah.

S: You had some really interesting ideas about how you talk about your work as well, in terms of presenting your artwork. Clifton and Ntiense have been writing as well about how when it comes to it, to stand up and talk about artwork and show artwork at the same time. We’ve been thinking of all the technology that can be used, we’re going through that process at the moment. Ntiense you wanted to get a slide projector to play around with images and text together didn’t you?

N: Yeah

S: …and Clifton you’ve got lots of different ideas, things that we will try out as well.

C: Yeah



N: I was thinking, (about) the plan for the ideas and how you did the film?

H: So do you mean in terms of how I made the film or how I talk about the film?

N: Yeah

H: Well if I start with how I talk about it, I think that very often for me it’s often starts with talking about the process maybe, giving people an insight into how I made this thing. For example when I was talking about the film that I made, the film in Brazil –
I was talking about why I was dancing, the fact that I was dancing because I’d had these lessons, the costume and where that came from. So that’s often breaking it down and talking about the actual process of how this thing that the audience is looking at, how it was made. In that way it opens things out a bit more for the audience because they get an idea of how I went about constructing it and making it. Very often for me that is the starting point. From my experience there are some artists that like to talk about what it means, so not how it was made but what the artist feels it means for them. I quite often do that. I know there are some artists that don’t like doing that. There are a lot of artists that feel that they want people to get a meaning for themselves out of the work, if they say their intention and what it means for them that it stops other people, I don’t know if I agree with that personally but I think that is maybe a judgment that as an artists you have to make really. Some people feel they want to leave it open so that anyone can get anything they want from it whereas other people feel happy to talk about some of their ideas and the meanings. I don’t know how you feel about that?

N: I feel it’s good, it’s inspired me. The films that me, Maweuna, Doreen and Clifton did, the parts of it that we’re involved with, the talking, the sound and how you represent the work.

In yours, is there some of an echo sound? And you hear the words of the background and when you stand back there’s some acting going on with women…I think it’s suspicious because I’m thinking about the echo and the sound protector of someone, if someone is lying down on the floor.

S: The way that your film starts?

N: Yeah, you’re involved in it. I think it’s particular because I think it’s good.

S: Maybe then I’d ask you the question Ntiense; in your artwork are you telling a story in your artwork? Or not?

N: That isn’t related to the artwork

S: …Because I think that’s really interesting that you make the distinction that you’re not telling a story although you have all these titles about different characters.
I suppose - why do you give titles to all your work and you create all these characters and at the same time you don’t want there to be a definite story? Can you explain that?

N: Well it’s a theme. When you say the storyline, it’s like all the emotion of the themes. When you do a theme, two different types of what you’re saying about the characters. What you’re saying about the story, its in a line…When you turn to the front paper and the back paper its like a story. You’re retelling the story. When you’re telling a story all the characters are in it. The artwork is like a theme of work. It’s the same but different, one or two sections, you’re doing a theme of work, its why I’m doing the same thing.

The ones (artwork) on the wall are day and night, it’s the same thing.
It is actually a theme of separate work.

S: I probably shouldn’t use the word story, but I have to use that, there’s the circus, maybe that’s a theme and not a story?

N: I invented that one

S: Yeah you invented that, the idea of the circus as a way of bringing together lots of different themes; landscape, lights, the idea of escape

N: Portraits

S: I think that’s really interesting Ntiense, the idea of its not a story but it’s a way of pulling lots of stories together.

H: Then I think that the way you display it is really important to that, to try and communicate that to the audience, I think its simple things, we’re often quite trained because we’re so used to stories and narratives to try to read things in that way so for example showing a row of images, that immediately sets it up for a story, people are looking from left to right, one image follows another, looking for a story. So if you wanted to get away from that, if you didn’t want people to read it as boom, boom, boom, you might try and mix it up or you might try and group or cluster images together so you’ve got a whole set of images in the corner. You might have one set there and one set there. It stops people from doing the really simple thing of putting things together.

Clifton’s questions to Harold

S: Clifton have you been writing questions? You’ve got four questions? Good that’s great. Do you want to fire away?

C: I’m going to do it the backward way of asking question four first, I like to do things like that…Where is the furthest place that you have been to so far with your art? I like asking hard questions. Can you remember?

H: In terms of distance, er, I think it’s Cape Town in South Africa, oh no I’ve been to China that’s further isn’t it? We went to a province called…near a city called Quang Ho near Hong Kong. That’s probably the furthest.

C: How do you feel when you’re doing the art and what are you thinking when you’re doing the art?

H: I think it depends what sort of stage it is, I really like doing research and like finding out about things. One of the reasons that I got into doing art and still like doing art is that its often for me about finding out about new things and acquiring knowledge so the fact that it allows me to explore ideas that I might have or things that I don’t understand. I often use it like ‘Oh I don’t know about this, I’m going to go off and find out about it’. So that is really enjoyable, so there’s that research stage. And then it often comes to a point where it’s like a bit of a challenge, it’s a problem solving exercise, where its like I’ve got to make a piece of work or there’s a question I need to answer or something. I quite like that because that’s a real challenge because I have to really concentrate. And then you come up with an idea. And then I think the bit that I less enjoy is actually making it. It’s like ok I’ve done all this nice research where I’ve been messing around. I’ve done the problem bit…’

S: Is it like that for anyone else?

Laughter

H: …and then I come up with the idea and its like ok, right, I’ve got to do this now and then that bit I don’t necessarily enjoy as much because I get a bit anxious. You’ve got to make it perfect, and do it again. And I’d actually be quite happy to get someone else to do all of that, all of it. Sometimes I enjoy it but generally that’s the hardest bit for me.

C: Fair enough!

H: How is it for you guys?

C: I don’t mind it at all

N: It’s not too bad

H: Do you enjoy just doing the work, as well as doing the ideas and the research, the process?

N: Yeah

S: What do you like doing in the studio Maweuna? You do lots of different things, you do painting and sometimes you do prints?

M: I like painting

H: But that is actually a different way of working, that is something I should maybe do more of because I what I tend to do is sit down quite coldly and come up with an idea and then try and make the idea. But there’s another way of working where you’re using materials, where you’re drawing or you’re doing painting or sculpture where actually it works the other way around - the work comes out of the process of doing that. Which is maybe what I don’t do enough of, which is maybe why it’s a bit more enjoyable for you guys! It’s that thing of experimenting that’s what I’m trying to say

S: You can have that learning experience, the challenges are there. Ntiense you spend a lot of time doing research and thinking carefully about what you want to achieve in terms of someone looking at your work. So I wondered if you have any comment about what Harold said about it, about thinking and researching being an important part? Is the research an important part of what you do in your work, is it something you enjoy doing?

N: That’s part of the artwork and one is separate to that is my written work

S: Ok so there’s written and research and then there’s doing. Something I find in terms of books, which are sort of my thing, the relationship between words and images in books and the way that an artist might write in a particular way and there’s something really exciting about that because it relates to something they’re doing visually, and at the same time maybe a writer who doesn’t use visual communication at all might write something about an artist, and they’re looking at something and writing. It’s really interesting that relationship between words and images.

And it’s something that as you go into a gallery suddenly becomes something that people have an expectation that there will be certain words used or even certain words not used. So there are all sorts of decisions around how, in that space the artwork that is made in the studio here, changes or develops not necessarily for the worse and its about taking control of that I suppose.

H: It’s interesting in a gallery how important text becomes whether that’s the title, the labels or text panels and you go in sometimes they give you a leaflet or a bit of writing on.

N: I think that’d be good for me, yes

S: You like the idea of having a leaflet and words and panels? Are you going to have words that are your artwork as well?

N: Yes

S: So there are all those layers. We went to see the Ian Hamilton Finlay room at Tate Britain a few weeks ago, with the dinghy and the poems that were painted on the wall…

N: Was it in a line? The one on the wall, the ship and there were words coming down.

S: Yeah it was in a curve, yeah, just as a reference. So I think, were you talking on Friday Ntiense about how you are going to make words part of your artwork? Were you talking with Guy and Ella about that? How you’re going to bring it together?

…Clifton did you have another question

C: What art would you do the next time we see you and would it be different?

H: Oh, (laughs) that’s a good question. Well I think there are sort of two related ways of working. I’ve been working on this series of videos and photographs that again I’m performing in that relate to specific album covers. So I’ve tried to use the album covers as starting points for performances. So there’s this one, which is by a singer called Grace Jones. I was quite interested in this image and for a long time I thought this was an amazing really striking image because she’s holding this amazing pose. Then a few years ago I discovered that actually the image is very altered, it’s a composite, so it’s two photos put together. So actually this position, which is a dance position, it’s called Arabesque when you’re on one leg its called an Arabesque but its almost impossible, well it is impossible to do this image. And the top half of her body was photographed facing on and the bottom half of her body is in profile. And they’ve put the two photos together. So you’d have to pretty much break your rib cage to get this position.

N: When she does that, holding her foot, does it hurt, when she’s had that pose, does it hurt?

H: Yeah, it’s quite hard and the fact that her leg is so high up. I think there are a few professional dancers who might be able to get fairly close to it. So I did this photograph where I’m trying to do it. If you remember the other image, it’s pretty difficult to do. So if you look at this image very much her shoulders are square on and you can see all her front there. And then in my pathetic attempt, you know my leg isn’t as far up, my shoulders aren’t square on. I’m not as twisted round to the front as much. So what I was interested in was in the impossibility of that image and how it in a way presents an ideal image of perfection, this amazing body. And then actually someone ordinary like me trying to do it. And there’s a gap between, you know like a lot of images we see are really manipulated and sort of stretched (and this is quite stretched as well actually) to make them look really perfect and then that’s completely different to the reality of trying to do that.

N: To represent the picture you know you put the album cover, the front and the back. It has the record inside. Does that picture represent the front cover or the album?

H: Yes it does, it was based on vinyl records, I‘ve got a very small vinyl record collection. Its 12 inches so it’s quite big and the original image that I had is based on that. And when I did the photograph, my photograph, I then made an album cover size, so it’s 12 inches as well, like the original album. So the two things relate so when I come to display it hopefully looks like a big album cover, big album cover size.
So came back to your question Clifton I’m doing a series of these that are based on these other album covers as well.

There was another part of your question as well wasn’t there? Did I answer everything?

C: There’s the last one. What are you doing as far as art is concerned - the same thing or something new to do with art?

H: Did you say ‘Why?’

No I said. What are you doing as far as art is concerned - the same thing or something new to do with art?

H: That’s a good question. I think it’s a bit of both really. I think there are certain processes that I use that tend to be quite similar whether I use myself in video or performance. One of the other things that I’m starting to do now is collaborate with other people, which is perhaps something I haven’t talked about. So I’m quite interested in that and that is partly in response to the fact that quite a lot of the stuff I’ve done up ‘til now has just been me and that gets a bit boring sometimes really. Just like talking to yourself..

C: Going mad!

H: Yeah a little bit. And its quite nice to work with other people and do projects where maybe I’m not in them, which is quite nice. Then I don’t have to see myself all the time, which as I said is quite boring.

So there’s a certain kind of method that I work with whether that’s working with other people or using myself. But then there are also little new ideas or the subject matter of things maybe, new things that I’m interested in doing. For example I’ve had this idea for a while about doing these performances and these events that are based on these Japanese gameshows, ‘80s Japanese gameshows that I’ve got a collection from YouTube of, which are really amazing, where basically they invite teams of people, it might be family or friends and they create images together as performances.

S: Have you seen any of those?

H: They’re pretty wild actually. There’s one where they do a ten-pin bowling alley piece where they’ll have people dressed up as pins, you know like in a bowling alley. Each person will sort of stand there. So basically four people will make the ball, so they’ll all put themselves together into a ball shape and then they’ll be rolled down and they’ll hit the people who are dressed as pins. Or you’ll get another one where they’ll make a scene, where people will be dressed up and arranged. I saw one where they make a tree so they’re all standing on top of each other and then there’s a nest and then people are birds in the nest, they’re using their hands as the you know…So I’m quite interested in the potential of doing that as a project, so that’s maybe something new.

C: Laughing, I can’t believe it!

H: Yeah you should check it out. There are loads of them!

S: The one I saw was called Takashi’s castle, that was really funny. But I felt really sorry for the people that were playing it because they really injured themselves…but they’re always smiling!?

H: Yeah they always throw themselves into these tasks

S: They are amazing to watch, especially as they’re all in costume. Is that your last question (Clifton)? Has anyone else got a question? Because we could watch the films that you’ve all made and maybe Harold might have some questions. We could have another quick chat about the relevance of what we’ve been talking about.

Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio at Studio Voltaire and talking about work being made in the Intoart studio.

Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio

Clifton Wright CW: It’s like my work already

Elisabeth Le Court EC: Yes? Well, I like to paint people as well like you (laugh)

Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye NA: (laugh)Is it, It is erm funny? (Looking at one of
Elisabeth’s paintings)

EC: Yes, well some people see cat. Some people……
SJ: Can you see the animals…the penguins……yes?
EC: Erm…So I don’t place my work
NA: (Do you) like short hair?
EC: Sorry?
NA: This had short hair?
EC: yes yes, So I paint them from imagination, kind of
NA: it is…erm….Is it John…is it. John…Mandel with no hair? Well without hair
EC: well, It’s difficult to paint hair isn’t it but that’s not..
NA: is it another man
SJ: Do you like painting men?

EC: Oh, I don’t mind. Yes, I don’t really think, yes, I don’t really know what happens, sometimes, usually I don’t really have a finished idea in my mind? It’s probably the same as you? and then I see how it goes, and see if it turns into a woman or a man

SJ: you probably have something to say about that (addressing Clifton)……I am always asking questions, questions. Well not just me actually, Lenka (Clayton) was asking as well…..What you are thinking, because?

CW: yes

SJ: when you are working you are concentrating so hard….What’s the thought process?

EC: You don’t know because you don’t think about what you are thinking you just think about it
SJ: Yes

EC: Sometimes, I do have a slight idea of what I want to do….yes. I feel I have got to let it out. So that’s a course that I am doing at the moment

NA: Is that, is it a portrait.
EC: Kind of
NA: Is it a portrait
EC: Yes its…what do you mean?
NA: Like…peoples faces, portrait and body

EC: Apparently someone came here yesterday and he said….and I think he is right that if you turn the canvas here it would be much stronger, probably, because it is a bit weak here because there is no, what he said it is not very well drawn….. we don’t know if its legs, if they, we don’t really know was it is and when I did it I was quite happy with it for people to imagine what they want, I think it is too loose for anyone to imagine so I think you need to give more, a little bit for peoples imagination to go further away

SJ: So when you are doing a piece like that would you be working from life or would it all come from your imagination, from your head.

EC: yes it would come from imagination. But yesterday, I because he did tell me about the drawing and I really would like to draw from nature and I would have been really happy to have someone posing for me, I think, yes, I quite like that, yes I think it is a good idea. Yes. This one I did…You probably saw it

SJ: Yes. That was in the Studio Voltaire Annual Member’s Exhibition
EC: I think it is quite successfully one , well, but I started with this, but I never really do from drawing, bit I think is it is a good idea to maybe have something…

SJ: Its an amazing photograph.

EC: yes I know its really funny and her face looks like really its from another era, as well

NA: Where did you get it?
EC: Pardon?
NA: Where did you get that?
EC: From a charity shop. Because you all draw from images and references.
NA: Woman?
EC; Mexican, yes
NA: …..erm actually you are to do some more people some more animals?

EC: Well, yes I have one bird there, on his own, buts is usually people. I think it is my main interest is people…and the body as well and sculpture. So it was kind a like, Sometimes when you feel, I used to work more on like emotions before, everything was about emotion and letting emotions out and making sometimes you could feel that you can’t a little bit like this, but erm…the more I work like this the more I kind of….

SJ: Yes

EC: ….the more I work like this the more I use it like therapy as well. And now I am more, it’s another direction. It’ s another direction. I was doing some handkerchiefs. I was embroidering handkerchiefs like this one. And I was more, and it was all the emotions all the crying, because handkerchiefs are quite tactile as well and when we cry and all the snot and everything keeps on the handkerchief, but

NA: Snotty?

(laughs)

EC: so the embroidery was like all your emotion and all your pain goes into the handkerchief and then kind of you let it out again.

NA: did you do any more flowers or plants? Or stuff like that or leaves or flowers?
EC: I did a flower because there is hope, I like to think (all laugh)…erm and I did..
EC: this one is an earlier one
NA: What material?
EC: It’s a map, its paper
NA: It’s a map. Its paper
EC: I take a map and I cut it, when I was living in france, because I like, before the painting I was working more on the body. I was making clothes and I was making dresses to represent the body, so…

SJ: Do you always start with eyes or the shape of the head or is it always different?
EC: It is always different, Usually with the eyes…where can I show you?
EC; This one I don’t know if its finished?
NA: Is it dark? The Back
SJ: Yes, its very dark.
EC: Like a shadow
SJ: Yes, like a shadow like the shadows are taking over?
EC: I don’t know
EC: Yes maybe I should add some colour. Making like, No? Is that what you meant?
NA: That’s not actually what I meant…I thought that….
SJ: I really like the way that the two merge together. The fore ground and the back ground

EC: I’ve got more to show you if you want.
SJ: Yes, definitely
EC: I had an experience. I did this and I was happy with the breast, but not the rest
NA: Are they books?
EC: So I kept the breast
NA: Are they books

EC: Well I don’t know? I just did them to delete the images. I don’t know if its finished, what do you think? I’m not sure. What do you think?

SJ: Its really interesting, these abstract shapes, then suddenly there is something real.
EC: like a window….and this one I am not sure about. I think I should re-work on them.

SJ: You spend a lot of time re-working things (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Yes
EC: You come back to your paintings sometimes?
CW: Yes, lots of layers. like three or four layers at least. Argh
NA: What is this?
EC: Its somebody who dies (group laughs)
NA: Is it a mystery?

EC: Maybe she is running away or maybe escaping or I don’t know…what do you think? Going to a ball or?

NA: I think she is looking for…I think she is looking for love, looking for her parents I think she is looking for her…and looking for love

SJ: Her parents

EC: Yes, exactly like a princess kind of a romantic, I feel the same, she wants her freedom, maybe or something like that.

SJ: Like Elenor Rigby or something?
EC: Can you relate to something like this or is it too girly (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Well kind of, it is to be honest.

SJ: So we have got time just to go and have a chat about peoples work? Thanks Elizabeth that was really, really interesting.

Moving to Clifton Wright's space in the Intoart studio

SJ: It might be good to sort of start with someone’s space?
CW: Yes
SJ: Talk about….you could actually move…

CW: I’ll start with mine

SJ: You were talking about different layers of paint. Weren’t you?

CW: Yes

EC: So did you start, did it look completely different at the start and then paint over it? And then you changed it all?

CW: I don’t start with the paint originally, I start with charcoal and I pour something over it first, then I will use acrylic paint, with little dark and light bits of paint, I start of with lighter bits here then darker bit here, and then darker here, lighter here.

EC: So is it a self portrait?

CW: I can’t remember. I have a problem remembering. Not self portrait, but portraits one after another, I can’t remember, I have several self portraits, I can’t remember.

SJ: I wasn’t here when you did that.
SJ: This is quite a good question, actually, if you can remember.

EC: He looks older than you. What part of the painting do you prefer? When you start the painting or in the middle of it?

CW: I forget!
EC:You know.
SJ: I think it’s that thing, and you can tell me if it’s right or not
CW: Yes,

SJ: When you are working on a drawing you concentrate so hard on it that and when you have finished it kind of has a life of its own and then and then you let it go, do you know what I mean and it goes on the wall that’s what it seems like to me anyway.

EC: Yes, and your happy, do you laugh or you do?
CW: Yes, definitely.
EC: Do you get really excited when you start a painting?
CW: No, a first point then I start…then my head in order and that I want to paint a portrait.

EC: ….do you think of a person maybe or of something completely different or is it difficult to say.

CW: It’s difficult to say.

EC: but you are going really far you are very concentrated

CW: Yes, because I don’t have a dialogue or what ever for what I am doing, whether it’s art or what. My art I get done. I have always had to prove that. It’s the only project I can think of or in this case I didn’t even know….

SJ: What was good was when all your work was on the wall and you were giving a talk with all of your work about the physical kind of work you had done and the shapes on the wall and how that relates to the work you are doing now a days, where you are using eyes and nose and mouth and putting them in together and there is a word that you used to describe that when writing about portraits stuff that was really good and you if you don’t remember I can tell you

CW: I can’t remember.

SJ: You said it was it was about putting a jigsaw together.

CW: Oh yes.

SJ: Where as when you are just drawing out of your head different shapes, which you do as well. Which is interesting that you do both, and it has a different feel to it. ….you always say that you don’t know, or that you don’t want to get into talking about that?

CW: Yes

SJ: ….So I am going to ask you the question. Why do you think you don’t want to talk about what you are doing with your drawing?

CW: I haven’t got a preference.
EC: But you are in a nice state to paint.
CW: Yes.
EC: Not messy.
CW: What?
EC: Messy, but
CW: I know that I like to get messy. In my head, if you come to art and you don’t expect to get messy then you are in the wrong kind of club. I don’t get paid for this.

EC: Do you sometimes do something that you are thinking oh no that’s not the way I wanted to do it, I am not really happy with it. Does that happen to you?

CW: Like behind you, (my drawing on the wall) Over the door, then I just change it and I am happy with it.

EC: So you just change it?
CW: Yes I just change it.
EC: So what do you want to do next?
CW: More portraiEC: Yes, but you do many men
CW: I do women sometimes.
EC: And I wanted to ask you. Do you have a favourite artist
CW: No I just go through the books, no I don’t have a favourite artist at all.
SJ: Just grab them (books) Its interesting to see the books.
EC: Do you think that, do you sometimes think that tomorrow I am going to do this? Or not. Do you plan ahead?

CW: Not really no. Not basically. I just I think properly the next day.
EC: You make?
CW: I like to work hard.

Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space

SJ: Do you remember when we went in the shop Mawuena do you remember what the man was saying about all the different patterns, fabrics? What did he say?

Mawuena Kattah MK: He said that a couple, he said that a couple were from Africa, Ghana.

SJ: He was really interesting and was talking where the different patterns came from, and he said if you are from Ghana you have to have these patterns. And Mawuena said no I don’t want those ones I want these ones. So you chose them based on the colours and the patterns

MK: because I am British and I speak the language, but I am part of Africa, in Ghana

SJ: I think you’d like that shop too Ntiense. It’s a really good shop I would like to go back there

MK: I bought it in London. I come from England and was born in London, England and I’d like to go back there.

SJ: ….you are having a dress made aren’t you Mawuena?
MK: Yes, my sister is making it.
SJ: With the fabric (that you are working from) as well…..I can’t wait to see the paintings and the dress.
EC: Yes, you are making a self portrait with you in a dress? With the hair.
MK:The thing is with the hair is that you have to cover it with a head tie on it. A head scarf. That’s how you do your hair it goes on your head.

Moving to Clifton Wright's space

EC: That’s the one that you like from the book?
CW: I don’t start like that all the time. I got that one from a book. I like the old man in that picture.

SJ: Have you got any painters there? …..In the books I mean. I was just wondering what other painters you’ve got there in the books…. I see, is that another book there?

CW: Oh yes, this one, there is a Giacometti one there as well.
SJ: you got these off the shelf? Because when I come in there is always a different pile of books on your desk!

EC: Do you know why you like Giacometti?

CW: No

SJ: you said to me once actually Clifton. I think I asked you once what were your ideas and you said the materials were your ideas.

CW: Yes

SJ: That’s an interesting way of working.

CW: Yes, because I quite like to draw before I…………….
SJ: ……….I think it would be nice to take a quick look through these
EC: Do you do life drawing?
CW: Sorry what did you say?
EC: You know when somebody poses for you?
CW: No, I haven’t done that at all.
SJ: Is that something you’d like to do?
CW: Yes
SJ: Is that something you’d like to try Clifton?
CW: I wouldn’t mind, yes.
EC: Because you are quite technical
CW: Very technical.

SJ: It’s good to see the really abstract shapes and patterns and areas compared to the faces and how these two elements sometimes come together in a piece of work, where you’ve got a figure, you’ve got that attention to the shape of the body but then there is all those other abstract shapes combining, its interesting to see how they have come together and developed

EC: Do you give them titles?
CW: I gave that one the old man a title.
NA: Mine hasn’t got a title.
SJ: Has this work here not got any titles Ntinse?
NA: Got no title for it, its different to that one.
EC: Are they finished?
CW: Yes, its knowing when to stop.
NA: Many drawings
SJ: It’s quite a big pile of drawings. You have done a lot of work Clifton. A lot of work

CW: Yes, that’s why I have to take Friday afternoon off. Kind of a bit much
SJ: Yes sometimes you just need to have a break and come back to things
SJ That was from a book
EC: Yes yes yes
EC: Yes, that’s very nice.
CW: I have finished.
SJ: That’s great. I think we should move onto Mawuena

Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space

EC: How many photographs?!
SJ: yes, Really beautiful
EC: Have you been to Ghana?
MK: yes, many times
EC: Wow, did you take these photographs?
MK: No
EC: This one is wonderful! Who is this?
MK: That’s my aunty
EC: and the girl behind?
MK: that’s….
EC: amazing

MK: And that’s me, inside the taxi
EC: Yes, its hot over there? You like it?
MK: Yes, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty
MK: and that’s my aunty again and my big brother

EC: Ok, so you like the orchard

MK: Yes, that’s just me, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty.
EC: Very nice

EC: Wow!
MK: ….and that’s me
EC: Yes, that’s you
SJ: Are these all new photographs Mawuena
MK: Yes.
MK: ….and that’s me with my boy
EC: Wow, very handsome.
EC: So would you like to live in Ghana?
MK: Yes
SJ: Would you miss London?
MK: Yes
SJ: Difficult isn’t it
EC: What do you like? Do you like the food?
MK: Yes. Might go back to Ghana next year.
SJ: Are you going over there? With your mum?
MK: Yes. My mum and my aunty and my big brother.
EC: So do they paint?
MK: No
EC: None of them?
MK: No
EC: So you’re the only one and they followed you?
MK: Yes
EC: This is great, wonderful
SJ: You had been concentration on these abstract pieces, haven’t you Mawuena?
Mk: Yes, I took that piece of fabric home with me to my aunty and she is going to make a dress out of it. Its at home.
SJ: I can’t wait to see the dress?
EC: So why are they dressed in the same way?

MK: Because, this, they always wear different outfits. Because they have different tops. I have the old one at home.

EC: They are all from the same family
MK: Yes, I like that.
EC: I love the dress it’s beautiful
MK: and that’s that
EC: So are you painting your family when you paint?
MK: Yes. This one!

SJ: So how old are these photographs Mawuena? Are some of them newer than others?
MK: Yes.

SJ: Because some of them are very different (the) colours are very different aren’t they?

SJ: Gosh the colours in that are amazing!
EC: Yes, amazing
EC: So that was a special occasion?
MK: Yes, He’s dead.
EC: I see. And here…another special occasion?
MK: Yes. Dead.
EC: What was it?
MK: He’s just dead, you can’t see their faces and they turn their backs.
SJ: What would you be celebrating when you are wearing that?
MK: When someone is dead.
EC: Oh, I see.
SJ: Oh, yes again
EC: So it’s a burial? Who was the person? So was it a man?

SJ: Would the coffin have of been open and the person dressed?

MK: Yes.

EC: What about this photograph?

MK: That’s my mother with some of the nurses and doctors.

EC: What is she doing? Does she work at a hospital.

MK: Yes.

EC: (These are) Wonderful.
SJ: So when you look at photographs Manwenua what are you looking at? What are you looking for?
MK: People
SJ and what else? What else do you look for?
MK: Different kind of fabrics and happy faces of the people.
SJ: Where’s this?
MK: It’s a church
SJ: yes ok.
EC: Everybody goes to church? Do you go to church?
MK: I go twice a day at 10am and in the evening at 6.30
EC: Do you sing?
MK: yes. I go twice a week. I go Saturday and Sunday. Now I go once a week I am Christian as well
EC: So is it a happy mass? Do people sing?
MK: There’s like a lot of people who go to church and meet there. I go to church and we meet there and I am a Christian
MK: They put that on their head, to be baptized.
SJ: At the christening
MK: Yes, christening and funeral, then you are baptized.
EC: So now you are painting patterns instead of people?
MK: Yes
EC: Are you going to mix both?
MK: Look at the memory of it. One of me.
SJ: Of the church?
MK: Memories of people that have died. Memories.
SJ: Yes the memories are every strong.
EC: Is that the person who was buried?
MK: Yes.
EC: Who was he to you?
MK: That’s Toga, he is dead and that’s why we have to bury him.
SJ: Is he your uncle?
EC: Did you see him dead.
MK: No, I saw them taking him to the family.
SJ: Amazing composition.
EC: Yes.
MK: That’s him.
EC: So he is wearing that fabric?
MK: No. That’s him.
SJ: You wore a dress similar to that when we went to the fabric shop. The man in the shop was telling you where its from.
MK: Yes, he said that the material was from Ghana and I said yes. And he said how do you make a dress out of fabric and I said that you have to make it and you have to pay for it from the shop. That’s someone’s mum. And that’s me outside in my nightie.

SJ: So when you are in Ghana, does it rain or is it always sunny?
MK: No
EC: So what do they ask you to bring from here (When you go to Ghana)?
MK: Photos (laughs)

SJ: I can imagine them going through photos of you. Kind of right now!
NA: Its being in touch with her.
SJ: Yes that’s right. It is being in touch. That is a really good way to put it Nteinse. Being in touch with people and having photos
EC: So people cry a lot and then they have a meal. Together?
MK: Yes, we have a meal together.
EC: And then people stop crying?
MK: Yes.
EC: Were you sad as well?
MK: No
SJ: Did you not know them so well?
MK: Yes, that’s my Aunty.
EC: But its part of life isn’t it?
SJ: How long did the ceremony go on for? Is it more than one day?
MK: Yes.

EC: But he is wearing a different outfits?
SJ: He is.
EC: So people dress differently throughout the day.
MK: Yes
EC: So what is the ceiling made out of?
MK: Curtains
EC: Oh I see.
SJ: They are beautiful
EC: Is there a special food that you eat at a funeral?
MK: Yes, Ocra soup. Mmm…
(laughs)
SH: Do you fancy that Nteinse?
NA: Not ocra.

Looking at Mawuena’s portraits

EC: You did that one as well. Let’s talk about this one, I am very intrigued.
MK: That’s a man, that’s a woman, that’s a man and that’s a woman.
EC: So is that (part of the portrait) something I would know?
MK: Yes, that’s a moustache.
EC: Ok
SJ: It’s sort of taken over hasn’t it?
EC: Do you sometimes have dreams? Do you draw your dreams?
MK: Yes.
EC: Do you imagine? Like this?
MK: Yes
EC: And how do you feel before you make a picture? Do you feel very excited?
MK: Very excited.
EC: What’s your favourite part? Starting? When you are doing it or finishing it?
MK: When I look at a persons face, I can paint the water can paint the eye colour the eye, the nose correct, the mouth the ears, then I start doing and I finish and the hair and the body.
EC: That’s from photographs?
SJ: Some of those are from photographs. These faces, I think, you were working from some books. But that was a while ago, over a year ago. But all the new work is from photographs. You started to bring those in about a year ago didn’t you?
MK: Yes
EC: I like your colours
MK: Thank you.
SJ: Yes, lovely colours.
SJ: You work really, really fast……
MK: Yes, its true.
SJ: ….that would probably take about an hour, the one on the end there.
MK: Its true
SJ: Its quite interesting because when you (directed at Clifton) work on a portrait it can take you three days, can’t it?
CW: Yes.
SJ: I thought it was an interesting question Elisabeth when you asked what’s your favourite moment, the beginning, the middle or the end?

MK: The End!!! To write something.
SJ: You like to finish it and write something or show to people.
MK: Yes.

SJ: I think that is really interesting because everybody is different aren’t they. Some people just like to do it all the time and never finish anything, just keep going and going and going?

EC: When you are in Ghana do you paint over there? Or are you on holiday?
MK: No. On holiday.
EC: Relaxing.
SJ: Researching?
EC: And how long have you been painting for?
MK: Always