Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio at Studio Voltaire and talking about work being made in the Intoart studio.
Visiting Elisabeth Le Court’s studio
Clifton Wright CW: It’s like my work already
Elisabeth Le Court EC: Yes? Well, I like to paint people as well like you (laugh)
Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye NA: (laugh)Is it, It is erm funny? (Looking at one of
Elisabeth’s paintings)
EC: Yes, well some people see cat. Some people……
SJ: Can you see the animals…the penguins……yes?
EC: Erm…So I don’t place my work
NA: (Do you) like short hair?
EC: Sorry?
NA: This had short hair?
EC: yes yes, So I paint them from imagination, kind of
NA: it is…erm….Is it John…is it. John…Mandel with no hair? Well without hair
EC: well, It’s difficult to paint hair isn’t it but that’s not..
NA: is it another man
SJ: Do you like painting men?
EC: Oh, I don’t mind. Yes, I don’t really think, yes, I don’t really know what happens, sometimes, usually I don’t really have a finished idea in my mind? It’s probably the same as you? and then I see how it goes, and see if it turns into a woman or a man
SJ: you probably have something to say about that (addressing Clifton)……I am always asking questions, questions. Well not just me actually, Lenka (Clayton) was asking as well…..What you are thinking, because?
CW: yes
SJ: when you are working you are concentrating so hard….What’s the thought process?
EC: You don’t know because you don’t think about what you are thinking you just think about it
SJ: Yes
EC: Sometimes, I do have a slight idea of what I want to do….yes. I feel I have got to let it out. So that’s a course that I am doing at the moment
NA: Is that, is it a portrait.
EC: Kind of
NA: Is it a portrait
EC: Yes its…what do you mean?
NA: Like…peoples faces, portrait and body
EC: Apparently someone came here yesterday and he said….and I think he is right that if you turn the canvas here it would be much stronger, probably, because it is a bit weak here because there is no, what he said it is not very well drawn….. we don’t know if its legs, if they, we don’t really know was it is and when I did it I was quite happy with it for people to imagine what they want, I think it is too loose for anyone to imagine so I think you need to give more, a little bit for peoples imagination to go further away
SJ: So when you are doing a piece like that would you be working from life or would it all come from your imagination, from your head.
EC: yes it would come from imagination. But yesterday, I because he did tell me about the drawing and I really would like to draw from nature and I would have been really happy to have someone posing for me, I think, yes, I quite like that, yes I think it is a good idea. Yes. This one I did…You probably saw it
SJ: Yes. That was in the Studio Voltaire Annual Member’s Exhibition
EC: I think it is quite successfully one , well, but I started with this, but I never really do from drawing, bit I think is it is a good idea to maybe have something…
SJ: Its an amazing photograph.
EC: yes I know its really funny and her face looks like really its from another era, as well
NA: Where did you get it?
EC: Pardon?
NA: Where did you get that?
EC: From a charity shop. Because you all draw from images and references.
NA: Woman?
EC; Mexican, yes
NA: …..erm actually you are to do some more people some more animals?
EC: Well, yes I have one bird there, on his own, buts is usually people. I think it is my main interest is people…and the body as well and sculpture. So it was kind a like, Sometimes when you feel, I used to work more on like emotions before, everything was about emotion and letting emotions out and making sometimes you could feel that you can’t a little bit like this, but erm…the more I work like this the more I kind of….
SJ: Yes
EC: ….the more I work like this the more I use it like therapy as well. And now I am more, it’s another direction. It’ s another direction. I was doing some handkerchiefs. I was embroidering handkerchiefs like this one. And I was more, and it was all the emotions all the crying, because handkerchiefs are quite tactile as well and when we cry and all the snot and everything keeps on the handkerchief, but
NA: Snotty?
(laughs)
EC: so the embroidery was like all your emotion and all your pain goes into the handkerchief and then kind of you let it out again.
NA: did you do any more flowers or plants? Or stuff like that or leaves or flowers?
EC: I did a flower because there is hope, I like to think (all laugh)…erm and I did..
EC: this one is an earlier one
NA: What material?
EC: It’s a map, its paper
NA: It’s a map. Its paper
EC: I take a map and I cut it, when I was living in france, because I like, before the painting I was working more on the body. I was making clothes and I was making dresses to represent the body, so…
SJ: Do you always start with eyes or the shape of the head or is it always different?
EC: It is always different, Usually with the eyes…where can I show you?
EC; This one I don’t know if its finished?
NA: Is it dark? The Back
SJ: Yes, its very dark.
EC: Like a shadow
SJ: Yes, like a shadow like the shadows are taking over?
EC: I don’t know
EC: Yes maybe I should add some colour. Making like, No? Is that what you meant?
NA: That’s not actually what I meant…I thought that….
SJ: I really like the way that the two merge together. The fore ground and the back ground
EC: I’ve got more to show you if you want.
SJ: Yes, definitely
EC: I had an experience. I did this and I was happy with the breast, but not the rest
NA: Are they books?
EC: So I kept the breast
NA: Are they books
EC: Well I don’t know? I just did them to delete the images. I don’t know if its finished, what do you think? I’m not sure. What do you think?
SJ: Its really interesting, these abstract shapes, then suddenly there is something real.
EC: like a window….and this one I am not sure about. I think I should re-work on them.
SJ: You spend a lot of time re-working things (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Yes
EC: You come back to your paintings sometimes?
CW: Yes, lots of layers. like three or four layers at least. Argh
NA: What is this?
EC: Its somebody who dies (group laughs)
NA: Is it a mystery?
EC: Maybe she is running away or maybe escaping or I don’t know…what do you think? Going to a ball or?
NA: I think she is looking for…I think she is looking for love, looking for her parents I think she is looking for her…and looking for love
SJ: Her parents
EC: Yes, exactly like a princess kind of a romantic, I feel the same, she wants her freedom, maybe or something like that.
SJ: Like Elenor Rigby or something?
EC: Can you relate to something like this or is it too girly (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Well kind of, it is to be honest.
SJ: So we have got time just to go and have a chat about peoples work? Thanks Elizabeth that was really, really interesting.
Moving to Clifton Wright's space in the Intoart studio
SJ: It might be good to sort of start with someone’s space?
CW: Yes
SJ: Talk about….you could actually move…
CW: I’ll start with mine
SJ: You were talking about different layers of paint. Weren’t you?
CW: Yes
EC: So did you start, did it look completely different at the start and then paint over it? And then you changed it all?
CW: I don’t start with the paint originally, I start with charcoal and I pour something over it first, then I will use acrylic paint, with little dark and light bits of paint, I start of with lighter bits here then darker bit here, and then darker here, lighter here.
EC: So is it a self portrait?
CW: I can’t remember. I have a problem remembering. Not self portrait, but portraits one after another, I can’t remember, I have several self portraits, I can’t remember.
SJ: I wasn’t here when you did that.
SJ: This is quite a good question, actually, if you can remember.
EC: He looks older than you. What part of the painting do you prefer? When you start the painting or in the middle of it?
CW: I forget!
EC:You know.
SJ: I think it’s that thing, and you can tell me if it’s right or not
CW: Yes,
SJ: When you are working on a drawing you concentrate so hard on it that and when you have finished it kind of has a life of its own and then and then you let it go, do you know what I mean and it goes on the wall that’s what it seems like to me anyway.
EC: Yes, and your happy, do you laugh or you do?
CW: Yes, definitely.
EC: Do you get really excited when you start a painting?
CW: No, a first point then I start…then my head in order and that I want to paint a portrait.
EC: ….do you think of a person maybe or of something completely different or is it difficult to say.
CW: It’s difficult to say.
EC: but you are going really far you are very concentrated
CW: Yes, because I don’t have a dialogue or what ever for what I am doing, whether it’s art or what. My art I get done. I have always had to prove that. It’s the only project I can think of or in this case I didn’t even know….
SJ: What was good was when all your work was on the wall and you were giving a talk with all of your work about the physical kind of work you had done and the shapes on the wall and how that relates to the work you are doing now a days, where you are using eyes and nose and mouth and putting them in together and there is a word that you used to describe that when writing about portraits stuff that was really good and you if you don’t remember I can tell you
CW: I can’t remember.
SJ: You said it was it was about putting a jigsaw together.
CW: Oh yes.
SJ: Where as when you are just drawing out of your head different shapes, which you do as well. Which is interesting that you do both, and it has a different feel to it. ….you always say that you don’t know, or that you don’t want to get into talking about that?
CW: Yes
SJ: ….So I am going to ask you the question. Why do you think you don’t want to talk about what you are doing with your drawing?
CW: I haven’t got a preference.
EC: But you are in a nice state to paint.
CW: Yes.
EC: Not messy.
CW: What?
EC: Messy, but
CW: I know that I like to get messy. In my head, if you come to art and you don’t expect to get messy then you are in the wrong kind of club. I don’t get paid for this.
EC: Do you sometimes do something that you are thinking oh no that’s not the way I wanted to do it, I am not really happy with it. Does that happen to you?
CW: Like behind you, (my drawing on the wall) Over the door, then I just change it and I am happy with it.
EC: So you just change it?
CW: Yes I just change it.
EC: So what do you want to do next?
CW: More portraiEC: Yes, but you do many men
CW: I do women sometimes.
EC: And I wanted to ask you. Do you have a favourite artist
CW: No I just go through the books, no I don’t have a favourite artist at all.
SJ: Just grab them (books) Its interesting to see the books.
EC: Do you think that, do you sometimes think that tomorrow I am going to do this? Or not. Do you plan ahead?
CW: Not really no. Not basically. I just I think properly the next day.
EC: You make?
CW: I like to work hard.
Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space
SJ: Do you remember when we went in the shop Mawuena do you remember what the man was saying about all the different patterns, fabrics? What did he say?
Mawuena Kattah MK: He said that a couple, he said that a couple were from Africa, Ghana.
SJ: He was really interesting and was talking where the different patterns came from, and he said if you are from Ghana you have to have these patterns. And Mawuena said no I don’t want those ones I want these ones. So you chose them based on the colours and the patterns
MK: because I am British and I speak the language, but I am part of Africa, in Ghana
SJ: I think you’d like that shop too Ntiense. It’s a really good shop I would like to go back there
MK: I bought it in London. I come from England and was born in London, England and I’d like to go back there.
SJ: ….you are having a dress made aren’t you Mawuena?
MK: Yes, my sister is making it.
SJ: With the fabric (that you are working from) as well…..I can’t wait to see the paintings and the dress.
EC: Yes, you are making a self portrait with you in a dress? With the hair.
MK:The thing is with the hair is that you have to cover it with a head tie on it. A head scarf. That’s how you do your hair it goes on your head.
Moving to Clifton Wright's space
EC: That’s the one that you like from the book?
CW: I don’t start like that all the time. I got that one from a book. I like the old man in that picture.
SJ: Have you got any painters there? …..In the books I mean. I was just wondering what other painters you’ve got there in the books…. I see, is that another book there?
CW: Oh yes, this one, there is a Giacometti one there as well.
SJ: you got these off the shelf? Because when I come in there is always a different pile of books on your desk!
EC: Do you know why you like Giacometti?
CW: No
SJ: you said to me once actually Clifton. I think I asked you once what were your ideas and you said the materials were your ideas.
CW: Yes
SJ: That’s an interesting way of working.
CW: Yes, because I quite like to draw before I…………….
SJ: ……….I think it would be nice to take a quick look through these
EC: Do you do life drawing?
CW: Sorry what did you say?
EC: You know when somebody poses for you?
CW: No, I haven’t done that at all.
SJ: Is that something you’d like to do?
CW: Yes
SJ: Is that something you’d like to try Clifton?
CW: I wouldn’t mind, yes.
EC: Because you are quite technical
CW: Very technical.
SJ: It’s good to see the really abstract shapes and patterns and areas compared to the faces and how these two elements sometimes come together in a piece of work, where you’ve got a figure, you’ve got that attention to the shape of the body but then there is all those other abstract shapes combining, its interesting to see how they have come together and developed
EC: Do you give them titles?
CW: I gave that one the old man a title.
NA: Mine hasn’t got a title.
SJ: Has this work here not got any titles Ntinse?
NA: Got no title for it, its different to that one.
EC: Are they finished?
CW: Yes, its knowing when to stop.
NA: Many drawings
SJ: It’s quite a big pile of drawings. You have done a lot of work Clifton. A lot of work
CW: Yes, that’s why I have to take Friday afternoon off. Kind of a bit much
SJ: Yes sometimes you just need to have a break and come back to things
SJ That was from a book
EC: Yes yes yes
EC: Yes, that’s very nice.
CW: I have finished.
SJ: That’s great. I think we should move onto Mawuena
Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space
EC: How many photographs?!
SJ: yes, Really beautiful
EC: Have you been to Ghana?
MK: yes, many times
EC: Wow, did you take these photographs?
MK: No
EC: This one is wonderful! Who is this?
MK: That’s my aunty
EC: and the girl behind?
MK: that’s….
EC: amazing
MK: And that’s me, inside the taxi
EC: Yes, its hot over there? You like it?
MK: Yes, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty
MK: and that’s my aunty again and my big brother
EC: Ok, so you like the orchard
MK: Yes, that’s just me, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty.
EC: Very nice
EC: Wow!
MK: ….and that’s me
EC: Yes, that’s you
SJ: Are these all new photographs Mawuena
MK: Yes.
MK: ….and that’s me with my boy
EC: Wow, very handsome.
EC: So would you like to live in Ghana?
MK: Yes
SJ: Would you miss London?
MK: Yes
SJ: Difficult isn’t it
EC: What do you like? Do you like the food?
MK: Yes. Might go back to Ghana next year.
SJ: Are you going over there? With your mum?
MK: Yes. My mum and my aunty and my big brother.
EC: So do they paint?
MK: No
EC: None of them?
MK: No
EC: So you’re the only one and they followed you?
MK: Yes
EC: This is great, wonderful
SJ: You had been concentration on these abstract pieces, haven’t you Mawuena?
Mk: Yes, I took that piece of fabric home with me to my aunty and she is going to make a dress out of it. Its at home.
SJ: I can’t wait to see the dress?
EC: So why are they dressed in the same way?
MK: Because, this, they always wear different outfits. Because they have different tops. I have the old one at home.
EC: They are all from the same family
MK: Yes, I like that.
EC: I love the dress it’s beautiful
MK: and that’s that
EC: So are you painting your family when you paint?
MK: Yes. This one!
SJ: So how old are these photographs Mawuena? Are some of them newer than others?
MK: Yes.
SJ: Because some of them are very different (the) colours are very different aren’t they?
SJ: Gosh the colours in that are amazing!
EC: Yes, amazing
EC: So that was a special occasion?
MK: Yes, He’s dead.
EC: I see. And here…another special occasion?
MK: Yes. Dead.
EC: What was it?
MK: He’s just dead, you can’t see their faces and they turn their backs.
SJ: What would you be celebrating when you are wearing that?
MK: When someone is dead.
EC: Oh, I see.
SJ: Oh, yes again
EC: So it’s a burial? Who was the person? So was it a man?
SJ: Would the coffin have of been open and the person dressed?
MK: Yes.
EC: What about this photograph?
MK: That’s my mother with some of the nurses and doctors.
EC: What is she doing? Does she work at a hospital.
MK: Yes.
EC: (These are) Wonderful.
SJ: So when you look at photographs Manwenua what are you looking at? What are you looking for?
MK: People
SJ and what else? What else do you look for?
MK: Different kind of fabrics and happy faces of the people.
SJ: Where’s this?
MK: It’s a church
SJ: yes ok.
EC: Everybody goes to church? Do you go to church?
MK: I go twice a day at 10am and in the evening at 6.30
EC: Do you sing?
MK: yes. I go twice a week. I go Saturday and Sunday. Now I go once a week I am Christian as well
EC: So is it a happy mass? Do people sing?
MK: There’s like a lot of people who go to church and meet there. I go to church and we meet there and I am a Christian
MK: They put that on their head, to be baptized.
SJ: At the christening
MK: Yes, christening and funeral, then you are baptized.
EC: So now you are painting patterns instead of people?
MK: Yes
EC: Are you going to mix both?
MK: Look at the memory of it. One of me.
SJ: Of the church?
MK: Memories of people that have died. Memories.
SJ: Yes the memories are every strong.
EC: Is that the person who was buried?
MK: Yes.
EC: Who was he to you?
MK: That’s Toga, he is dead and that’s why we have to bury him.
SJ: Is he your uncle?
EC: Did you see him dead.
MK: No, I saw them taking him to the family.
SJ: Amazing composition.
EC: Yes.
MK: That’s him.
EC: So he is wearing that fabric?
MK: No. That’s him.
SJ: You wore a dress similar to that when we went to the fabric shop. The man in the shop was telling you where its from.
MK: Yes, he said that the material was from Ghana and I said yes. And he said how do you make a dress out of fabric and I said that you have to make it and you have to pay for it from the shop. That’s someone’s mum. And that’s me outside in my nightie.
SJ: So when you are in Ghana, does it rain or is it always sunny?
MK: No
EC: So what do they ask you to bring from here (When you go to Ghana)?
MK: Photos (laughs)
SJ: I can imagine them going through photos of you. Kind of right now!
NA: Its being in touch with her.
SJ: Yes that’s right. It is being in touch. That is a really good way to put it Nteinse. Being in touch with people and having photos
EC: So people cry a lot and then they have a meal. Together?
MK: Yes, we have a meal together.
EC: And then people stop crying?
MK: Yes.
EC: Were you sad as well?
MK: No
SJ: Did you not know them so well?
MK: Yes, that’s my Aunty.
EC: But its part of life isn’t it?
SJ: How long did the ceremony go on for? Is it more than one day?
MK: Yes.
EC: But he is wearing a different outfits?
SJ: He is.
EC: So people dress differently throughout the day.
MK: Yes
EC: So what is the ceiling made out of?
MK: Curtains
EC: Oh I see.
SJ: They are beautiful
EC: Is there a special food that you eat at a funeral?
MK: Yes, Ocra soup. Mmm…
(laughs)
SH: Do you fancy that Nteinse?
NA: Not ocra.
Looking at Mawuena’s portraits
EC: You did that one as well. Let’s talk about this one, I am very intrigued.
MK: That’s a man, that’s a woman, that’s a man and that’s a woman.
EC: So is that (part of the portrait) something I would know?
MK: Yes, that’s a moustache.
EC: Ok
SJ: It’s sort of taken over hasn’t it?
EC: Do you sometimes have dreams? Do you draw your dreams?
MK: Yes.
EC: Do you imagine? Like this?
MK: Yes
EC: And how do you feel before you make a picture? Do you feel very excited?
MK: Very excited.
EC: What’s your favourite part? Starting? When you are doing it or finishing it?
MK: When I look at a persons face, I can paint the water can paint the eye colour the eye, the nose correct, the mouth the ears, then I start doing and I finish and the hair and the body.
EC: That’s from photographs?
SJ: Some of those are from photographs. These faces, I think, you were working from some books. But that was a while ago, over a year ago. But all the new work is from photographs. You started to bring those in about a year ago didn’t you?
MK: Yes
EC: I like your colours
MK: Thank you.
SJ: Yes, lovely colours.
SJ: You work really, really fast……
MK: Yes, its true.
SJ: ….that would probably take about an hour, the one on the end there.
MK: Its true
SJ: Its quite interesting because when you (directed at Clifton) work on a portrait it can take you three days, can’t it?
CW: Yes.
SJ: I thought it was an interesting question Elisabeth when you asked what’s your favourite moment, the beginning, the middle or the end?
MK: The End!!! To write something.
SJ: You like to finish it and write something or show to people.
MK: Yes.
SJ: I think that is really interesting because everybody is different aren’t they. Some people just like to do it all the time and never finish anything, just keep going and going and going?
EC: When you are in Ghana do you paint over there? Or are you on holiday?
MK: No. On holiday.
EC: Relaxing.
SJ: Researching?
EC: And how long have you been painting for?
MK: Always
Clifton Wright CW: It’s like my work already
Elisabeth Le Court EC: Yes? Well, I like to paint people as well like you (laugh)
Ntiense Eno-Amooquaye NA: (laugh)Is it, It is erm funny? (Looking at one of
Elisabeth’s paintings)
EC: Yes, well some people see cat. Some people……
SJ: Can you see the animals…the penguins……yes?
EC: Erm…So I don’t place my work
NA: (Do you) like short hair?
EC: Sorry?
NA: This had short hair?
EC: yes yes, So I paint them from imagination, kind of
NA: it is…erm….Is it John…is it. John…Mandel with no hair? Well without hair
EC: well, It’s difficult to paint hair isn’t it but that’s not..
NA: is it another man
SJ: Do you like painting men?
EC: Oh, I don’t mind. Yes, I don’t really think, yes, I don’t really know what happens, sometimes, usually I don’t really have a finished idea in my mind? It’s probably the same as you? and then I see how it goes, and see if it turns into a woman or a man
SJ: you probably have something to say about that (addressing Clifton)……I am always asking questions, questions. Well not just me actually, Lenka (Clayton) was asking as well…..What you are thinking, because?
CW: yes
SJ: when you are working you are concentrating so hard….What’s the thought process?
EC: You don’t know because you don’t think about what you are thinking you just think about it
SJ: Yes
EC: Sometimes, I do have a slight idea of what I want to do….yes. I feel I have got to let it out. So that’s a course that I am doing at the moment
NA: Is that, is it a portrait.
EC: Kind of
NA: Is it a portrait
EC: Yes its…what do you mean?
NA: Like…peoples faces, portrait and body
EC: Apparently someone came here yesterday and he said….and I think he is right that if you turn the canvas here it would be much stronger, probably, because it is a bit weak here because there is no, what he said it is not very well drawn….. we don’t know if its legs, if they, we don’t really know was it is and when I did it I was quite happy with it for people to imagine what they want, I think it is too loose for anyone to imagine so I think you need to give more, a little bit for peoples imagination to go further away
SJ: So when you are doing a piece like that would you be working from life or would it all come from your imagination, from your head.
EC: yes it would come from imagination. But yesterday, I because he did tell me about the drawing and I really would like to draw from nature and I would have been really happy to have someone posing for me, I think, yes, I quite like that, yes I think it is a good idea. Yes. This one I did…You probably saw it
SJ: Yes. That was in the Studio Voltaire Annual Member’s Exhibition
EC: I think it is quite successfully one , well, but I started with this, but I never really do from drawing, bit I think is it is a good idea to maybe have something…
SJ: Its an amazing photograph.
EC: yes I know its really funny and her face looks like really its from another era, as well
NA: Where did you get it?
EC: Pardon?
NA: Where did you get that?
EC: From a charity shop. Because you all draw from images and references.
NA: Woman?
EC; Mexican, yes
NA: …..erm actually you are to do some more people some more animals?
EC: Well, yes I have one bird there, on his own, buts is usually people. I think it is my main interest is people…and the body as well and sculpture. So it was kind a like, Sometimes when you feel, I used to work more on like emotions before, everything was about emotion and letting emotions out and making sometimes you could feel that you can’t a little bit like this, but erm…the more I work like this the more I kind of….
SJ: Yes
EC: ….the more I work like this the more I use it like therapy as well. And now I am more, it’s another direction. It’ s another direction. I was doing some handkerchiefs. I was embroidering handkerchiefs like this one. And I was more, and it was all the emotions all the crying, because handkerchiefs are quite tactile as well and when we cry and all the snot and everything keeps on the handkerchief, but
NA: Snotty?
(laughs)
EC: so the embroidery was like all your emotion and all your pain goes into the handkerchief and then kind of you let it out again.
NA: did you do any more flowers or plants? Or stuff like that or leaves or flowers?
EC: I did a flower because there is hope, I like to think (all laugh)…erm and I did..
EC: this one is an earlier one
NA: What material?
EC: It’s a map, its paper
NA: It’s a map. Its paper
EC: I take a map and I cut it, when I was living in france, because I like, before the painting I was working more on the body. I was making clothes and I was making dresses to represent the body, so…
SJ: Do you always start with eyes or the shape of the head or is it always different?
EC: It is always different, Usually with the eyes…where can I show you?
EC; This one I don’t know if its finished?
NA: Is it dark? The Back
SJ: Yes, its very dark.
EC: Like a shadow
SJ: Yes, like a shadow like the shadows are taking over?
EC: I don’t know
EC: Yes maybe I should add some colour. Making like, No? Is that what you meant?
NA: That’s not actually what I meant…I thought that….
SJ: I really like the way that the two merge together. The fore ground and the back ground
EC: I’ve got more to show you if you want.
SJ: Yes, definitely
EC: I had an experience. I did this and I was happy with the breast, but not the rest
NA: Are they books?
EC: So I kept the breast
NA: Are they books
EC: Well I don’t know? I just did them to delete the images. I don’t know if its finished, what do you think? I’m not sure. What do you think?
SJ: Its really interesting, these abstract shapes, then suddenly there is something real.
EC: like a window….and this one I am not sure about. I think I should re-work on them.
SJ: You spend a lot of time re-working things (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Yes
EC: You come back to your paintings sometimes?
CW: Yes, lots of layers. like three or four layers at least. Argh
NA: What is this?
EC: Its somebody who dies (group laughs)
NA: Is it a mystery?
EC: Maybe she is running away or maybe escaping or I don’t know…what do you think? Going to a ball or?
NA: I think she is looking for…I think she is looking for love, looking for her parents I think she is looking for her…and looking for love
SJ: Her parents
EC: Yes, exactly like a princess kind of a romantic, I feel the same, she wants her freedom, maybe or something like that.
SJ: Like Elenor Rigby or something?
EC: Can you relate to something like this or is it too girly (addressed to Clifton)?
CW: Well kind of, it is to be honest.
SJ: So we have got time just to go and have a chat about peoples work? Thanks Elizabeth that was really, really interesting.
Moving to Clifton Wright's space in the Intoart studio
SJ: It might be good to sort of start with someone’s space?
CW: Yes
SJ: Talk about….you could actually move…
CW: I’ll start with mine
SJ: You were talking about different layers of paint. Weren’t you?
CW: Yes
EC: So did you start, did it look completely different at the start and then paint over it? And then you changed it all?
CW: I don’t start with the paint originally, I start with charcoal and I pour something over it first, then I will use acrylic paint, with little dark and light bits of paint, I start of with lighter bits here then darker bit here, and then darker here, lighter here.
EC: So is it a self portrait?
CW: I can’t remember. I have a problem remembering. Not self portrait, but portraits one after another, I can’t remember, I have several self portraits, I can’t remember.
SJ: I wasn’t here when you did that.
SJ: This is quite a good question, actually, if you can remember.
EC: He looks older than you. What part of the painting do you prefer? When you start the painting or in the middle of it?
CW: I forget!
EC:You know.
SJ: I think it’s that thing, and you can tell me if it’s right or not
CW: Yes,
SJ: When you are working on a drawing you concentrate so hard on it that and when you have finished it kind of has a life of its own and then and then you let it go, do you know what I mean and it goes on the wall that’s what it seems like to me anyway.
EC: Yes, and your happy, do you laugh or you do?
CW: Yes, definitely.
EC: Do you get really excited when you start a painting?
CW: No, a first point then I start…then my head in order and that I want to paint a portrait.
EC: ….do you think of a person maybe or of something completely different or is it difficult to say.
CW: It’s difficult to say.
EC: but you are going really far you are very concentrated
CW: Yes, because I don’t have a dialogue or what ever for what I am doing, whether it’s art or what. My art I get done. I have always had to prove that. It’s the only project I can think of or in this case I didn’t even know….
SJ: What was good was when all your work was on the wall and you were giving a talk with all of your work about the physical kind of work you had done and the shapes on the wall and how that relates to the work you are doing now a days, where you are using eyes and nose and mouth and putting them in together and there is a word that you used to describe that when writing about portraits stuff that was really good and you if you don’t remember I can tell you
CW: I can’t remember.
SJ: You said it was it was about putting a jigsaw together.
CW: Oh yes.
SJ: Where as when you are just drawing out of your head different shapes, which you do as well. Which is interesting that you do both, and it has a different feel to it. ….you always say that you don’t know, or that you don’t want to get into talking about that?
CW: Yes
SJ: ….So I am going to ask you the question. Why do you think you don’t want to talk about what you are doing with your drawing?
CW: I haven’t got a preference.
EC: But you are in a nice state to paint.
CW: Yes.
EC: Not messy.
CW: What?
EC: Messy, but
CW: I know that I like to get messy. In my head, if you come to art and you don’t expect to get messy then you are in the wrong kind of club. I don’t get paid for this.
EC: Do you sometimes do something that you are thinking oh no that’s not the way I wanted to do it, I am not really happy with it. Does that happen to you?
CW: Like behind you, (my drawing on the wall) Over the door, then I just change it and I am happy with it.
EC: So you just change it?
CW: Yes I just change it.
EC: So what do you want to do next?
CW: More portraiEC: Yes, but you do many men
CW: I do women sometimes.
EC: And I wanted to ask you. Do you have a favourite artist
CW: No I just go through the books, no I don’t have a favourite artist at all.
SJ: Just grab them (books) Its interesting to see the books.
EC: Do you think that, do you sometimes think that tomorrow I am going to do this? Or not. Do you plan ahead?
CW: Not really no. Not basically. I just I think properly the next day.
EC: You make?
CW: I like to work hard.
Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space
SJ: Do you remember when we went in the shop Mawuena do you remember what the man was saying about all the different patterns, fabrics? What did he say?
Mawuena Kattah MK: He said that a couple, he said that a couple were from Africa, Ghana.
SJ: He was really interesting and was talking where the different patterns came from, and he said if you are from Ghana you have to have these patterns. And Mawuena said no I don’t want those ones I want these ones. So you chose them based on the colours and the patterns
MK: because I am British and I speak the language, but I am part of Africa, in Ghana
SJ: I think you’d like that shop too Ntiense. It’s a really good shop I would like to go back there
MK: I bought it in London. I come from England and was born in London, England and I’d like to go back there.
SJ: ….you are having a dress made aren’t you Mawuena?
MK: Yes, my sister is making it.
SJ: With the fabric (that you are working from) as well…..I can’t wait to see the paintings and the dress.
EC: Yes, you are making a self portrait with you in a dress? With the hair.
MK:The thing is with the hair is that you have to cover it with a head tie on it. A head scarf. That’s how you do your hair it goes on your head.
Moving to Clifton Wright's space
EC: That’s the one that you like from the book?
CW: I don’t start like that all the time. I got that one from a book. I like the old man in that picture.
SJ: Have you got any painters there? …..In the books I mean. I was just wondering what other painters you’ve got there in the books…. I see, is that another book there?
CW: Oh yes, this one, there is a Giacometti one there as well.
SJ: you got these off the shelf? Because when I come in there is always a different pile of books on your desk!
EC: Do you know why you like Giacometti?
CW: No
SJ: you said to me once actually Clifton. I think I asked you once what were your ideas and you said the materials were your ideas.
CW: Yes
SJ: That’s an interesting way of working.
CW: Yes, because I quite like to draw before I…………….
SJ: ……….I think it would be nice to take a quick look through these
EC: Do you do life drawing?
CW: Sorry what did you say?
EC: You know when somebody poses for you?
CW: No, I haven’t done that at all.
SJ: Is that something you’d like to do?
CW: Yes
SJ: Is that something you’d like to try Clifton?
CW: I wouldn’t mind, yes.
EC: Because you are quite technical
CW: Very technical.
SJ: It’s good to see the really abstract shapes and patterns and areas compared to the faces and how these two elements sometimes come together in a piece of work, where you’ve got a figure, you’ve got that attention to the shape of the body but then there is all those other abstract shapes combining, its interesting to see how they have come together and developed
EC: Do you give them titles?
CW: I gave that one the old man a title.
NA: Mine hasn’t got a title.
SJ: Has this work here not got any titles Ntinse?
NA: Got no title for it, its different to that one.
EC: Are they finished?
CW: Yes, its knowing when to stop.
NA: Many drawings
SJ: It’s quite a big pile of drawings. You have done a lot of work Clifton. A lot of work
CW: Yes, that’s why I have to take Friday afternoon off. Kind of a bit much
SJ: Yes sometimes you just need to have a break and come back to things
SJ That was from a book
EC: Yes yes yes
EC: Yes, that’s very nice.
CW: I have finished.
SJ: That’s great. I think we should move onto Mawuena
Moving to Mawuena Kattah's space
EC: How many photographs?!
SJ: yes, Really beautiful
EC: Have you been to Ghana?
MK: yes, many times
EC: Wow, did you take these photographs?
MK: No
EC: This one is wonderful! Who is this?
MK: That’s my aunty
EC: and the girl behind?
MK: that’s….
EC: amazing
MK: And that’s me, inside the taxi
EC: Yes, its hot over there? You like it?
MK: Yes, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty
MK: and that’s my aunty again and my big brother
EC: Ok, so you like the orchard
MK: Yes, that’s just me, that’s my mum, that’s my aunty.
EC: Very nice
EC: Wow!
MK: ….and that’s me
EC: Yes, that’s you
SJ: Are these all new photographs Mawuena
MK: Yes.
MK: ….and that’s me with my boy
EC: Wow, very handsome.
EC: So would you like to live in Ghana?
MK: Yes
SJ: Would you miss London?
MK: Yes
SJ: Difficult isn’t it
EC: What do you like? Do you like the food?
MK: Yes. Might go back to Ghana next year.
SJ: Are you going over there? With your mum?
MK: Yes. My mum and my aunty and my big brother.
EC: So do they paint?
MK: No
EC: None of them?
MK: No
EC: So you’re the only one and they followed you?
MK: Yes
EC: This is great, wonderful
SJ: You had been concentration on these abstract pieces, haven’t you Mawuena?
Mk: Yes, I took that piece of fabric home with me to my aunty and she is going to make a dress out of it. Its at home.
SJ: I can’t wait to see the dress?
EC: So why are they dressed in the same way?
MK: Because, this, they always wear different outfits. Because they have different tops. I have the old one at home.
EC: They are all from the same family
MK: Yes, I like that.
EC: I love the dress it’s beautiful
MK: and that’s that
EC: So are you painting your family when you paint?
MK: Yes. This one!
SJ: So how old are these photographs Mawuena? Are some of them newer than others?
MK: Yes.
SJ: Because some of them are very different (the) colours are very different aren’t they?
SJ: Gosh the colours in that are amazing!
EC: Yes, amazing
EC: So that was a special occasion?
MK: Yes, He’s dead.
EC: I see. And here…another special occasion?
MK: Yes. Dead.
EC: What was it?
MK: He’s just dead, you can’t see their faces and they turn their backs.
SJ: What would you be celebrating when you are wearing that?
MK: When someone is dead.
EC: Oh, I see.
SJ: Oh, yes again
EC: So it’s a burial? Who was the person? So was it a man?
SJ: Would the coffin have of been open and the person dressed?
MK: Yes.
EC: What about this photograph?
MK: That’s my mother with some of the nurses and doctors.
EC: What is she doing? Does she work at a hospital.
MK: Yes.
EC: (These are) Wonderful.
SJ: So when you look at photographs Manwenua what are you looking at? What are you looking for?
MK: People
SJ and what else? What else do you look for?
MK: Different kind of fabrics and happy faces of the people.
SJ: Where’s this?
MK: It’s a church
SJ: yes ok.
EC: Everybody goes to church? Do you go to church?
MK: I go twice a day at 10am and in the evening at 6.30
EC: Do you sing?
MK: yes. I go twice a week. I go Saturday and Sunday. Now I go once a week I am Christian as well
EC: So is it a happy mass? Do people sing?
MK: There’s like a lot of people who go to church and meet there. I go to church and we meet there and I am a Christian
MK: They put that on their head, to be baptized.
SJ: At the christening
MK: Yes, christening and funeral, then you are baptized.
EC: So now you are painting patterns instead of people?
MK: Yes
EC: Are you going to mix both?
MK: Look at the memory of it. One of me.
SJ: Of the church?
MK: Memories of people that have died. Memories.
SJ: Yes the memories are every strong.
EC: Is that the person who was buried?
MK: Yes.
EC: Who was he to you?
MK: That’s Toga, he is dead and that’s why we have to bury him.
SJ: Is he your uncle?
EC: Did you see him dead.
MK: No, I saw them taking him to the family.
SJ: Amazing composition.
EC: Yes.
MK: That’s him.
EC: So he is wearing that fabric?
MK: No. That’s him.
SJ: You wore a dress similar to that when we went to the fabric shop. The man in the shop was telling you where its from.
MK: Yes, he said that the material was from Ghana and I said yes. And he said how do you make a dress out of fabric and I said that you have to make it and you have to pay for it from the shop. That’s someone’s mum. And that’s me outside in my nightie.
SJ: So when you are in Ghana, does it rain or is it always sunny?
MK: No
EC: So what do they ask you to bring from here (When you go to Ghana)?
MK: Photos (laughs)
SJ: I can imagine them going through photos of you. Kind of right now!
NA: Its being in touch with her.
SJ: Yes that’s right. It is being in touch. That is a really good way to put it Nteinse. Being in touch with people and having photos
EC: So people cry a lot and then they have a meal. Together?
MK: Yes, we have a meal together.
EC: And then people stop crying?
MK: Yes.
EC: Were you sad as well?
MK: No
SJ: Did you not know them so well?
MK: Yes, that’s my Aunty.
EC: But its part of life isn’t it?
SJ: How long did the ceremony go on for? Is it more than one day?
MK: Yes.
EC: But he is wearing a different outfits?
SJ: He is.
EC: So people dress differently throughout the day.
MK: Yes
EC: So what is the ceiling made out of?
MK: Curtains
EC: Oh I see.
SJ: They are beautiful
EC: Is there a special food that you eat at a funeral?
MK: Yes, Ocra soup. Mmm…
(laughs)
SH: Do you fancy that Nteinse?
NA: Not ocra.
Looking at Mawuena’s portraits
EC: You did that one as well. Let’s talk about this one, I am very intrigued.
MK: That’s a man, that’s a woman, that’s a man and that’s a woman.
EC: So is that (part of the portrait) something I would know?
MK: Yes, that’s a moustache.
EC: Ok
SJ: It’s sort of taken over hasn’t it?
EC: Do you sometimes have dreams? Do you draw your dreams?
MK: Yes.
EC: Do you imagine? Like this?
MK: Yes
EC: And how do you feel before you make a picture? Do you feel very excited?
MK: Very excited.
EC: What’s your favourite part? Starting? When you are doing it or finishing it?
MK: When I look at a persons face, I can paint the water can paint the eye colour the eye, the nose correct, the mouth the ears, then I start doing and I finish and the hair and the body.
EC: That’s from photographs?
SJ: Some of those are from photographs. These faces, I think, you were working from some books. But that was a while ago, over a year ago. But all the new work is from photographs. You started to bring those in about a year ago didn’t you?
MK: Yes
EC: I like your colours
MK: Thank you.
SJ: Yes, lovely colours.
SJ: You work really, really fast……
MK: Yes, its true.
SJ: ….that would probably take about an hour, the one on the end there.
MK: Its true
SJ: Its quite interesting because when you (directed at Clifton) work on a portrait it can take you three days, can’t it?
CW: Yes.
SJ: I thought it was an interesting question Elisabeth when you asked what’s your favourite moment, the beginning, the middle or the end?
MK: The End!!! To write something.
SJ: You like to finish it and write something or show to people.
MK: Yes.
SJ: I think that is really interesting because everybody is different aren’t they. Some people just like to do it all the time and never finish anything, just keep going and going and going?
EC: When you are in Ghana do you paint over there? Or are you on holiday?
MK: No. On holiday.
EC: Relaxing.
SJ: Researching?
EC: And how long have you been painting for?
MK: Always
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